After hearing that President Barack Obama had just been reelected to a second four-year-term as our nation’s president I turned to my laptop and watched as Facebook suddenly became a blur of emotions, with months of political discourse coming to a head and clashing in a sea of insults and joyous celebration.
For perspective, I posted this on my timeline:
“In 1981, my parents fled Poland two weeks before Martial law. I was 4, my sister was 8 months old. They left the only home they ever knew and came to America, because they knew it was filled with promise and opportunity rather than riddled with the side effects of Communism, like crappy health care and 5 hour long lines for stale bread. Some are elated tonight, and some are downright depressed, but know this: we get to pick again in 4 years. Before you bad mouth our country, try living somewhere else, where there is No choice and truly No hope. Count your blessings America, because there are many.”
I awoke this morning knowing our country continued to be greatly divided and that emotions were running high and I checked in on my favorite social media sites to see how everyone was faring.
But my fascination quickly turned to disgust when I kept seeing the same status popping up over and over again:
“A sad and tragic day for our nation.”
Disappointing? Sure, if your guy didn’t win, I’m sure you’re feeling disappointed.
Frustrated? Nervous? Deflated? If you were counting on a different outcome, then of course you’re likely to feel these things.
But to exclaim that this is a tragic day for our nation?
Really?
To those who truly believe the Presidential election results are tragic, let me refresh your memory of what tragic really looks like, because it seems so many have clearly forgotten:
If I sound like I’m scolding some of you, it’s because I am. Get it together people and gain some perspective. Because this country will go to hell in a hand basket not because of a single man, but because we allow ourselves to forget just how amazing and resilient and FREE our nation truly is.
Maybe you woke up this morning feeling frightened about your future because you were counting on the other guy to make things better. But you also woke up in the same country where you are Free to express your religious beliefs, Free to speak your mind, Free to choose where you want to live, and Free to think idiotic things such as “this is a tragic day for our nation.”
I urge you to find a way today to remind yourself just how good we have it, even if you’re facing economic strife or some sort of adversity. I can tell you this much: as a mom of a special needs child, there’s nowhere else in the world I’d rather be because I know that even though we have a long way to go in the way of awareness, accessibility, and acceptance, we are light years ahead of so many other countries in the world.
Today I un-friended the first person since the Presidential campaigns began. She threw a tantrum on Facebook and compared our President and those who voted for him to terrorists.
I draw the line there. Those photos above? That’s the handiwork of terrorists.
So if you’re feeling a bit down in the dumps today because Mitt Romney won’t be moving into the White House come January, remember that we live in a nation where you get to do this all over again in four years.
In the meantime, empower others by getting involved in your community somehow. Do something kind for someone. Be someone’s hero. Spread kindness and tolerance. Teach your children that diversity is the cornerstone of this country and show them that not only is it possible to lose with dignity and respect, it’s imperative if we’re to move forward as nation.
Then meet up with your coworkers at the water cooler or your friends at the bar, and talk about what an idiot you think Obama is.
Because you can.
UPDATE: I’m so happy to know that this post has resonated with so many of you. I wrote it from my heart and I feel the exact same way today. Of course, I wrote it hoping we could all join hands and sing Kumbaya while rainbow colored unicorn poop fell from the sky, but alas, (and according to some of the comments) we just aren’t there yet. So in the meantime, if you have a comment, please remember to remain respectful or it will be deleted. Because unlike our fair nation, this website here is a straight up dictatorship.
Recent posts from Jo:
In Honor of Veterans Day: The Veteran I Almost Knew
And a Little Child Shall Lead Them
Sometimes We See What We Need to See and I Really Needed to See THIS
© 2008-2012 Jo Ashline
Very well said, Jo. I’m not sure how it’s tragic that people exercised their constitutional rights and the democratic process favored one candidate over another. That’s generally what happens in an election.
now we all have to work to become that one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all….That is where our strength and greatness begins and ends…lets work together for the good of all and remember the cliche “united we stand, divided we fall”. lets stand united
Do you realize it’s “One Nation Under GOD”
Did you forget about Him, the One who put us here!
My parents put me here. There is no god!
hmmmm.. you may want to rethink your position…there are many of your brethern in the scientific community that adhere to the anthropic principle which, in short, says that everything in the universe has a design…. so common sense, logic, and deductive reasoning says that if there is a design there has to be a designer…. however reducing it to a more banal position… if your parents put you here then who put their parents here and there parents and there parents and there parents and there parents……….. and …. and ….. and ….. ………………….
Dear T Munson: who put God here?
I am not trying to heckle you to just give you a hard time or anything. But honestly, I find your argument, which I have heard before, and which is actually called teleological argument (the anthropic principle is another concept, and does not postulate existence of God) to be unconvincing. I actually am a Christian, but my faith is not based on the teleological argument. Similarly, while I agree with you that many scientists believe in God, the teleological argument is not a scientific one. Science can neither prove or disprove God’s existence. That’s why there is no real conflict between science & faith.
No one has ever proven there is a god…faith and a book…that has been rewritten many times…Science has proven that things have, can, and will evolve , how could we possibly have a different beginning..Just because people want to believe theres more…doesnt mean there is……The Worlds natural ways of things progressing has been at work long b4 us…and will continue to evolve after we’re gone…js
who cause the moon to shine, the sun to shine, the stars to shine brightly in the ski. Who created all that was good and righteous in this world. God “HE” created you parents. It is funny how people are quick to say that their is no God . But the minute something happens they call out his name. Praying for you because before life is over you will admit that there is a God one who sits high and looks low. Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord !!!
Who put your parents here
Only a fool in his heart says there is no God.
Oh, how sad to hear you say “there is no god”. God gives you the very breath you breathe. God gives you the ability to see, speak, hear, feel, move. He enables you to write what you have written. He enables you to do everything, to function as a human being. He can stamp you out in a blink of your eye. He is almighty, magestic, ever knowing, ever seeing, everywhere. You are such a sad spectacle of a human being to denounce our God and Savior. There was a man in the Bible who did not recognize God as His creator, Provider and he said, “I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones”, because they weren’t big enough to hold all his wealth. God said , “You fool! Tonight your very soul will be required of thee.” He was eaten by worms. There was another man who said, there is no God. God said, “A fool says in his heart, ‘there is no God.’ ” So, choose your own poison.
Boom, did you forget that if God didn’t want President Obama in the White House again, he wouldn’t have been re-elected? I didn’t vote for Pres. Obama either, but it is time for you to accept God’s will and vote again in 4 years. In the meantime, I will stand behind my President. You should, too.
ah but sheila….. God has a permissive will and a perfect will…. to say that He wanted obama in office is saying you speak for God…. slippery slope to navigate
ah but sheila…you seem to forget… God has a perfect will AND a permissive will… so to say that got wanted obama reelected is saying you are speaking for Him…. slippery slope to navigate…………
sheila,
though we may not agree on everything – it sure looks like we have more in common and for this I am glad. We believe that it is good to be able to vote every four years. We believe in standing together for our country in spite of any other differences. We believe in supporting our President even if he or she is not the one we voted for. We believe that there are other more important things to keep working on between elections.
Perhaps all of those ‘God bless America’ prayers do indeed work. Because whether or not some of us think the President is a blessing, we certainly have enough other blessings to be thankful. Nice meeting you sheila !
I think both of you are forgetting that there are many religions being practiced within our country and everyone has a right to their belief. Nobody has the right to tell someone else that their thoughts, feelings, faith, what have you, is wrong. And on top of that, freedom of religion is a huge privilege we have, don’t take if for granted nor be close-minded. Also, government and church are separate, I don’t know how many times that was stressed in my history classes across the years, and I think too many in our nation forget that. There is NOT one belief system and tolerance is necessary.
With respect, there is a fallacy in your thinking. Lazy thinking I guess. That you perceive a design doesn’t prove there was a designer other than the natural forces of chance and resistance. Chance produces genetic mutations. Resistance or stress (by the environment) decides which ones will reproduce and which mutations will fail. In this way are all species designed but there is no “overmind” “no designer’s hand” just simply provable scientific principals that repeat over and over through millenia. I have a simple faith in the inter-connectness of all things on the spiritual level. This doesn’t mean that I believe that God designed it all and then sits and messes with it all it all the time. The “Under God” clause to the Pledge of Allegiance was added during one of the darkest times in our nation’s history and was added in a spirit of mean heartedness. Anyone who is proud of it being there is proclaiming that they know nothing of our nation’s history and aren’t Christians as I understand the word. (Agape doesn’t exist in the same heart as hate.)
I am a practicing Catholic, but as with most things, I think religion should evolve. I think if you are a good person with morals and compassion, who should care what your faith is. Christians will vote for Romney because his view on abortion and Gay Marriage. You trade one common interest for another that’s not so common. Even an Atheist can be President if they believe that all people should be treated fairly. Because one does not believe in the existence of a supreme being does not mean that they do not have morals and compassion. Does this mean we take off “In God We Trust” or take out “One nation Under God” ?? The constitution says ” “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;” So, as a Catholic It would be very hurtful to see these phrases removed, but how do we come off as tolerant to others religious freedom (Which is what this country was founded on) yet still pay tribute to one God that is not common to all religions? This is how I see it, if my friend Shehzad who is Muslim/Catholic wanted to run for president, knowing he is a fair and just man, why wouldn’t I vote for him. If my friend Marty, who doesn’t believe in a supreme being, but is intelligent and compassionate wanted to run for president why wouldn’t I support him. It is a moral call. Maybe the dollar should say “In Humanity We Trust”
Why would Christians all vote for Romney because of those two things? I don’t believe that all Christians are that closed minded. Right wing nut job Christians will vote for Romney because of those things. All Christians do not share those exact beliefs.
As a Christian… no, as a Human, I am against killing babies. But I recognize that a mother has an understanding of her situation and has the right to make decisions about her own health and the situation that she is in and that she might not be in a position to care for a baby. People will still make the choice to get an abortion even if it is not legal and they will injure themselves to the point where they may die if they feel they don’t have another option. This is simply a fact of human nature.
So for me, as a Christian, the solution to abortion is not to ban it, but to provide other options and support for parents who are considering abortion and make them attractive to those parents. I think that’s a better way to save babies and mothers.
Having said all that though… you’re spot on about everything else. It’s weird that some people don’t recognize that our President and Congressmen are leaders in some sense, but that they are meant to act as our representatives and that they are supposed to represent ALL of their constituents, not just the ones that they agree with. That’s kind of the definition of a republic.
Actually, the definition of a republic is that the state belongs to the people, not to a monarch or a single establishment. The part where representatives are supposed to be working behalf of all the constituents is a facet of democracy. Democracy is self-government.
Only if you believe in fantasy… There is no such thing as God.
just a little f.y.i…. the original bible had a book of epoch…. and i am glad to see you capitalized His name
“Under God” was added during the McCarthy era when there was a communist witch hunt ongoing. It was reactive to those times. Our nation is founded quite intentionally as a place where were are have freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion. Both. Just as a point of information. 🙂 Peace!
This is an awesome response and I totally agree!
BINGO!
Beautifully put, Kinberly, and forgotten by most zealots. Freedom FROM religion.
Thank you!!!
God is a personal belief-its not shared by all. Be grateful that here in America we protect your rights to believe what you want-and everyone else to believe what they want…and if you want to get all “factual” about it-check your books-“GOD” wasnt added until the 20th century-before that we were ust one nation-thats what our forfathers wanted, thats what we’re supposed to be about.
Is there a better way to respond then a continuance of insults. The point of the article.. I see views of both parties. Views are clearly your beliefs/ opinions….a beautiful written article…
I agree with you Marina. It seems like many of you didn’t really READ or UNDERSTAND this beautifully written article. I understand that everyone is entitled to there own opinion but I whole heartedly agree with this.
The “Under God” bit is a fairly recent invention. The founding fathers wanted to keep the specifics of religion out of our governing process. Freedom of and from religion is part of our basic rights. Our government is in no way under any god; it is supposed to be accepting of all gods, or lack thereof.
A good portion of our founding fathers were not Christian, but Deist. Keep that in mind. And if you don’t know what Deism is, look it up.
Very good Harry! I am often made nervous by extreme religious beliefs being mixed into political beliefs. they are and should remain separate.
Moral issues need to stay at home and in church and not as laws.
Womens’ rights of choice, contraception, etc are under fire once again. this argument goes all the way back to Margaret Sanger, who said that” a woman is not truly free until she can choose if and when to become a mother”.
As long as Republicans keep this conversation going, they will continue to be the minoritiy party.
Check your history, the phrase “under God” wasn’t officially added to the Pledge of Allegiance until June 14, 1954. This country was not founded as some “believers of GOD only” nation.
The original Pledge of Allegiance, as written in 1892: I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
The pledge of allegiance, was written by a Baptist minister who was also a socialist. A man of strong faith and convictions and he didn’t put god in it.
I didn’t know he was a socialist. Thanks for the tip.
Did you know the original Pledge of Allegiance did not have the words ” under God” ?That was inserted in the 1950s to distinguish us from the “Godless Russians.”
Do some research into the “under God” part, folks. Was NOT originally there. The United States Congress officially recognized the Pledge for the first time, in the following form, on June 22, 1942: “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” “Under God” was added in the 1950s. I’m not against your God, but am against insisting that our nation was founded under one God. Separation of church and state means we all get to worship in the way we choose. Including those who choose not to believe.
You are so wrong! Have you ever read in the “old History” books the ones written before the change artists got hold of them, about the Pilgrims who came to this country to get away from religious persecution? The first thing they did when they got off the ship was to kneel down and thank “GOD” for a safe journey and for the possibility of spreading the Gospel in this brave new world they had just come to. What God do you think they were praying to? ALLAH? Buddha? Ninja? or who? They were praying to God the Creator of Heaven and earth.
Nell, you mean the Pilgrims who fled persecution only to become the most vile and ardent persecutors themselves? Sure we know all about them We know the Pilgrims wanted to spread the so called “good news” of your Gospel (basically propaganda) – it’s what you Christians are programmed to do. Nothing special there. It’s basically subjugate and destroy all those who don’t believe as you do. Millions of murdered Native Americans can testify to that. And you ask what god the Pilgrims were praying to? Well, anyone who’s seriously studied the subject knows that the imaginary man-made god they prayed to was an obscure middle eastern desert tribal totem deity cobbled together by some goat herders from a dozen or so earlier gods of the region.
So your point is?
“Under God was not added until the 1950’s in the height of the Cold War. Whether or not you believe in him or not it does not belong there.
That wasn’t added to the allegiance until 1954.
The line ‘one nation under God’ was added sometime, like in the 50’s or 60’s. It has no place in everyone’s life because it is just a belief! And our parents are the one’s who did the dirty and put us here. Not an invisible man in the sky.
n 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, ‘under God,’ to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.———————————–Even those who don’t believe in God are Americans.And I doubt God(if he exists) cares for politics, or one country over another.
This blog post is a very good one, and we can all learn from it, as Jo is right.Very good post.
The history of the pledge of allegiance:
The original pledge of allegiance was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy, who was a Baptist minister, and it went like this:
I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
In 1923 it was changed to read:
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
It wasn’t until 1948 that Chicago attorney Louis A. Bowman first added the words “under God” to the pledge of allegiance. It wasn’t until June 14th, 1954, that the addition of these two words became official when President Eisenhower signed it into law.
Since the addition of those two words to the pledge of allegiance, the pledge has become one of the most controversial, divisive decisions ever made by the Government of this country.
There have even been court cases declaring the requirement to recite the pledge of allegiance to be unconstitutional. Some of them cited the fact that inclusion of the words “under God” were what made it unconstitutional. Other court cases have stated that it violates the first and fourteenth amendments to require students to stand and recite the pledge of allegiance in school. Other court cases have reversed that position and stated that it is constitutional.
In short, those simple two words have done a lot to turn a once “indivisible” united country into a country that is experiencing a deep divide.
I ask you, is it really such a great thing to expect of our country’s citizens, when it is the cause of so much division?
Thanks to this issue and many, many others facing this nation, we have become the Divided States of America, when we once used to be the United States of America. I for one believe in this country, and we need to become United again, and put behind us all the rhetoric and backstabbing that keep us Divided!
Yes, let’s not forget about me. Not only are you under me, Wednesday is named after me.
The pledge was written in 1892. At that time, “under god” wasn’t part of the wording. The phrase was added in 1954 at the urging of religious zealots, mostly to contrast the USA as a godly nation with the godless Soviet Union. The nation did just fine without god in the pledge. And we’ll continue to do fine without it.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but we’ve only been “one nation under God” since the late 1950s.
Do you realize when The Pledge was first written, it did not include the words “under God”??
“…under God” was a later addition to the Pledge of Allegiance. The original version, written by Francis Bellamy, a Baptist minister, in 1892, was written for a Columbus Day flag ceremony and originally read, “I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”
The “…under God” was added by Louis Bowman, an attorney from New York, He made the addition for a Sons of the American Revolution meeting on Lincoln’s birthday, possibly duplicating an addition made in Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address.
Just FYI.
Do you know what E Pluribus Unum is? It’s what the national motto before it was changed to “In God We Trust” in 1954. It was only put there as a morale booster after the red scare, because many people believed that all communists were atheist.
“One nation, under God” is not, and never was the motto. In fact, it’s not even in the original pledge of allegiance. It was added to it in the mid-1950s for the same reason our motto was changed. And frankly, having it as our motto goes against the very foundation of our country. Freedom of religion also includes freedom FROM religion.
The tag “under God” was added to the pledge in the 1950s. The original pledge of allegiance had no such reference. Neither did our money have “In God We Trust.”
That is YOUR Belief BOOM….Bottom Line “You believe in your God and I Believe in My GODS”!…..That is HOW this Country Works!…Free to believe anyway WE Choose!!!
There was no god until 1954. Written by a Baptist minister in 1892 it did not include god when written. The change was to save us from the godless red scare.
“Under God” was only added to the Pledge of Allegiance in the 1950’s during the Red scare in order to separate us from those “godless communists”. The founding fathers wouldn’t be so pleased to see it there, unlike the current mythology that tries to paint them all as being very religious.
But why are we even talking about this on this column. It was a great piece. Just leave it at that.
Actually, if you look at our history, “Under God” was put in the pledge during the cold war. It was in 1954, the Eisenhower years. Historically it read, “”I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” It was in the height of the McCarthy era that “Under God” was inserted. Previously our pledge had followed the lead of those who wrote the Constitution to allow each to his own religious counsel. That actually is one of the aspects of our nation that differentiated others at the time. Some of those that penned the Constitution were deeply religious while others were agnostic and they believed that this United States of America could make room for individual choice regarding our understanding of a god head. We forget to read our history.
god may have put you somewhere, but not i. nice to hear your polarizing nature has worked for you if no one else. thx for telling the rest of us what to think and what to believe, the U.S. is not gods country either, another accusation made by those who deem the rest of the world as irrelevant if it isn’t theirs. good job blinders !
Boom…it has only been “one nation under God” since about 1957 when that addition to the pledge as added against our will if you do not recall…many of us still do not recite that added bit as it is not how we learned the pledge of allegiance when we were children…also on our money it used to be E Pluribus unum was enough (translated to our of many, one) without any BS about God anywhere but same era the whole In God We Trust bit was also added o our paper money…it was only since then & it would have made the founders roll in their graves Boom as they wanted a strict separation of Church & State….please learn your facts before making such statements in future, eh?
Except we are NOT “one nation under God” despite the wishes of the Christian theocrats who hijacked our pledge, our motto and our money in the 1950’s.
We are in fact a nation that ACCEPTS that there are many gods (and goddesess) people believe in but we are under NONE of them. To say we are one nation UNDER a particular God violates the very principles that this SECULAR nation was founded upon. A nation founded by people FLEEING FROM countries that were “under God” and founded on Christianity and The Bible I might add.
It looks like you forgot a part of this. Where is the “under god”?
Todd, those words was added during the “red baiting” scare of the early 1950s. You do know that right? Our Founding Fathers would never have included that expression. Similarly, “In God We Trust” was added to our currency late in the Civil War by the Treasury Secretary, a devout Christian, over considerable opposition.
Well, like it or not, it’s officially there now. Deal with it.
Frank, While you are correct in your assertion that Under God was not included in the original Pledge of Allegiance, I disagree with your conclusion that Our Founding Fathers would never have included that expression.
The Pledge of Allegiance gained wide publicity when it was included in a program for the National Public Schools Celebration of Columbus Day (Imagine that… celebrating Columbus Day). And, it “was printed in The Youth’s Companion of September 8, 1892.” It was originally written:
“I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.”
http://www.wvsd.uscourts.gov/outreach/Pledge.htm
It went through a couple more changes before finally being adopted by Congress on June 22, 1942. And, “the last change in language came on Flag Day 1954, when Congress passed a law, which added the words ‘under God’ after ‘one nation.'” So, it’s current official context is:
“I pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.”
As for “In God We Trust” it was where did you get the information that there was considerable opposition to adding “In God We Trust” to our currency. The only opposition I can find on it has been since it was enacte as our National Motto in the 1950’s.
Lastly, for you to proclaim Our Founding Fathers would never have included the expression is a completely ridiculous since they included references to God in the Decleration of Independence which was crafted by them.
“When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.”
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.html
Thank you David for clarifying the facts. I feel compelled to remind people of faith, that none of our opinions about our leaders, or our nations responsibility towards them, will ever change the fact that God is in control. He and He alone appoints our kings, and His reasons are always in our best interest. Whatever we think about our leaders is not as important as what our true leader is trying to tell us… put your trust in Him, and all of these things will be revealed according to His will..
Dear n z, You left out one important phrase from the Pledge of Allegiance. It is one nation UNDER GOD, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Without an absolute standard we have no way of determining whether our laws and the actions of our leaders are just.
the phrase “under god” was added in 1954.
Actually “under God” is not part of the original pledge, Francis Bellamy wrote the original as “I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”
“Under God” was added in the ’50’s to combat the supposed communist threat.
Just want to point out that the phrase “under God” is a fairly recent addition (1954) to the Pledge of Allegiance.
It was left out intentionally because there is no god.
awesome
Spoken like a true democrat and that is why getting Obama back in office is indeed TRAGIC. We are being led by a man and party that don’t believe that God is real. I had to remind a democrat friend of mine that the DNC had to vote 3 times to put God into their platform. Why was God removed from the platform? The fact that God was removed from the DNC platform is TRAGIC. I assure you that according to the Bible, every knee will bow before God. It will either be here on this earth accepting the free gift of salvation or it will be in eternity on your way to hell. Having a leader that doesn’t fear God is truly TRAGIC, almost as bad as losing 3,000 Americans to a terrorist attack. BTW, if Obama doesn’t step up and retaliate for the Libya debacle, you can expect more domestic terrorism in the USA. Obama does not have the backbone that either of the President Bushes had and if he continues to be a wimp, the terrorists will be back and before Obama’s next 4 years are up, we will be learning Arabic. THAT IS TRAGIC. I am happy to live in a country that allows us to speak our mind, but this country is headed for hard times if we do not see that we are nothing without God.
Some people don’t believe in God… but we believe in the U.S.ofA.
JJPMD, we don’t need your “god” as our standard for what is just. We do much better in that regard without him. None of our laws are based on him or his book. And for good measure – WE don’t drown millions of people on a whim, commit mass genocide or have women and children stoned to death for frivolous reasons. Your god is hardly an “absolute moral standard” when he is the biggest hypocrite and murderer in history.
UNDER GOD!
“Under God” wasn’t part of the original Pledge (written by a minister, incidentally). In the 1950s, at the height of the Red Scare, the phrase was added in a rather craven maneuver to heighten the contrast between the US and the “godless” Soviets.
Some of us don’t believe in your god. Nevertheless, we are Americans. The Pledge should reflect that.
To the post of under God, I avoided all news coverage on Tuesday starting early and said this prayer: ” dear god please elect the best man to run this country”. And do you believe it? My prayers were answered:) next morning I woke up to Obama being elected and then I thanked god for answering my prayer……….
I’m sure there were thousands, if not millions, of people, possibly in your same religion, that prayed to have Romney win. What about them? What about those that died from hurricane Sandy or Katrina? 2006 Tsunami in Indonesia? 2010 Haiti earthquake? 9/11 attacks?
There is NO GOD! But of course, you religious followers use the cop out answer that people have free will and god lets them do whatever they want. How about those storms and other natural events, or “acts of god”? Another lame answer is that god has a purpose for them, that’s why they left this world. Pffft… tell that to my neighbor that lost their 3 yr old son in a pool accident. They are VERY religious too, but god didn’t help their child… maybe he needed a 3 yr old for some special purpose.
you must have said “ruin” our country and not “run”
The man according to God’s plan was elected. that does not necessarily mean that our country, as we know her, will survive. You said you prayed- do you read your bible too? Have your read Ezekiel? Have you read Revelations? Or any of the other prophesies of the end times? Any of you who are not right with God, who have not accepted Jesus as savior, I pray for you! And, speaking of God- because we have taken Him out of our country… He cannot bless us. You can’t receive a gift from someone you won’t even let into your home. And as far as, “we vote again in 4 years…” That remains to be seen. I weep for America and what he will endure in the next 4 (or more) years, and I pray that she survives!
The reason I cringe when anyone says, “UNDER GOD” is that the next thing they tell me is that they know GOD and I don’t and that GOD thinks that they are right and I am wrong. It is we humans who need to agree not to bomb each other or ram airplanes full of people into buildings full of people. “Allah Akbar” and “In God’s Name” mean the same thing and are usually uttered by humans who are killing, disenfranchishing, intimidating, relocating, purging, stealing from, or otherwise violating the god given rights of of other humans. Leave GOD out of it. Behave yourselves!
lemmings
Actually, I prefer to be on top.
So despite the rush of those of us who know that those particularly sought after words were added to the original in the 1950’s, I’ve got to ask what exactly IS the ‘Undergod’? That seems rather foreboding to me.
“The UNDERGOD”
“Theundergod”?
“Theunder god”?
“THUNDER GOD?!” I smell a Zeus-based neo-grecco-roman conspiracy!
That’s Thor, thank you very much. Hail (after the car gets put in the garage) Thor, God of Thunder!
Yeah, it was silly.
Happy Weekend people.
I think I love you…
I don’t know what is more farcical, the idea that God is favoring the United States over other nations, or the idea that a religiously devout person ought to vote Republican.
Anyway, the “under God” phrase is not original to the Declaration of Independence.
It’s tragic that so many citizens voted for the same policies that put Greece into turmoil. It’s tragic that so many Americans voted for a health care law they never researched.
It’s tragic that our financial system is falling apart, and like a college student with “daddy’s credit card” our president keeps “charging it” to China with out a budget (you try that one, tell me how well it works for you)
It’s tragic that stupidity out numbers intelligence here in the United States!
You clearly are not very well versed in the economic policies of Greece if you think that is what America just voted for.
I agree with you in one area: stupidity is tragic. Now go take a look in the stupid mirror, stupid.
The author said to be respectful or you will be deleted. Ok so is calling someone on here stupid being respectful? I see this is one of those places that like others is please listen to what I say but if you believe the way I do say what you want and it’s ok. You make some very good points in your post and I agree that your degree of tragic differs from what another person may see as tragic. Maybe they just have a different way of looking at things. I respect your views and opinions, I don’t agree with all of them but then being a military retiree I would just appreciate you saying thanks for helping to defend our Constitution for 20 years so that you can continue to have the right to say whatever you want in speech and in print. But I also have the right to disagree. I do hope that you have a good day and that all of us can continue to work together to make this a great and respected country again without calling each other “stupid”. Have a great day.
To DDS:
You have defended nothing because we have not been at war since WWII. Joining the military and volunteering for suicide missions that our politicians won’t even allow their kids to attend, is NOT! defending a single thing. If you decide to assist our murderous governments military then, that’s your own doing and it does nothing for this country, ever. Helping our government slaughter and conquer does not equate to defending a damn thing.
Hear Hear. The biggest tragedy is that the people who voted for socialism don’t even know or refuse to acknowledge that it IS a tragedy.
Chris. Point. Missed.
Great perspective! How sobering the truth must be when it reflects such frivolous a reality.
Now is the time to come together as a country.
The audacity of anyone to believe that ONE man can come a save the world. It is the responsibility of us all to do our part.
Thanks for sharing.
I will say thank you for defending our country and our constitution for 20 years, DDS! Thank you so much. If it were not for people like you, willing to serve, I believe our country would not be the republic that it is today. Even with all of her flaws, America still gives us the right to make ourselves heard, in words and deeds, and with our VOTE. Thank you, DDS. Thank you.
Chris, “voted for socialism”? This nation is so far the the authoritarian right that the liberal middle looks like the left. And that’s exactly why the nation is failing. Go to Political Compass and see where our candidates are.
Don’t confuse a socialist dictatorship with socialism. You seem unaware that many things should be socialized or the system fails. Health insurance is one of them because of “adverse selection” dynamic … the insurance corporations deserve a death sentence. Google “‘Free Market’ Fundamentalism’ “systems thinking”
Well, wasn’t that an educated reply, Roger.
Real nice Roger
Thanx Roger…well said.
thot u deleted these disrespectful posts
What’s tragic is that you think it’s okay to talk about people you’ve never met in such a degrading way because they didn’t agree with you.
What’s tragic is that you don’t realize that you have free will and don’t have to read anything you find offensive.
Yeah… we get it. It’s that damned 47% who only want handouts that keeps people like you from being able to get ahead. Keep thinking like that, and your party will go the way of the Whigs.
akejf;ajf,
Exaggeration doesn’t do a lot of good. Greece has serious problems with poor fiscal policy and runaway entitlements, combined with a huge amount of tax fraud. Sure, the US has some of the same problems regarding very VERY bad fiscal policy, but looking at the past 20 years it has been a BIPARTISAN EFFORT to get us to this position. I will grant that the Affordable Care Act is the latest effort by a President/Congress to cover their ears and pretend that THIS time it will save money, not cost more… but it is only the latest. From Bush 43’s huge increase in entitlement spending and unfunded wars, to Clinton era Free Trade agreements, all the way back to Reagan’s Voodoo Economics, we have seen decades of crappy fiscal policy. Another four years of Obama and a Republican House is unlikely to make it much better nor much worse. Yes, we are living off the Chinese credit card, and it’s the fault of both incumbent political parties, not just one. We can spread the blame out pretty evenly, but the biggest fault is with the majority of politicians who have forgotten how to be statesmen.
David Collison, I’ve never met you but I admire you for writing such an eloquent reply to a posting clearly made by someone who likes to whine without all the facts.
That said, Jo Ashline, this is the best response to the election results I have read so far! Thank you for helping to put it in perspective for those who are willing to open their eyes up to something other than their own opinion!
You are missing the point, Julie G.
It’s not about politics. It’s about comparing a vote for a president to terrorism. That’s all this is about.
Thank you, David.
What all of you have failed to mention is the 57 million babies that have been killed because of abortion. Both parties may be to blame for the fiscal mess but the dems and those that voted them into office are responsible for the death of those millions. That innocent blood is on your hands.
You know what David Collison it has not been a bi-partisan effort to put America’s fiscal house in to shambles. Not a single republican voted for that stupid healthcare monstrosity and very very few put their name on any of the dishonest and disingenuous fiscal policies that were rammed through the last four years. Also most of what caused our financial meltdown was put in place by large democratic majorities and signed off by a President that could not have done much to stop them. Reagan economic policies got us the boom years of the 80’s, 90’s and much of the 2000’s, there ain’t a damn thing Bill Clinton did that made that economy surge other than staying mostly out of its way letting run itself as it is intended to do. It when the 2007 Congress took over and some Clinton era poloicies really began to take root that our economy fell off of the face of the Earth in 2007-2008. Did Bush have some responsibility, yeah a little bit but no where near how you guys have blamed him, and through his fiscal policies he took what could have been an economic meltdown right after 9/11 and turned it into 4.5 percent unemployment and growth for 6 years. Democrats have a tremendous amount to blame for all of this stuff. There is nothing Barack Obama did that was positive, it was just the sheer force and muscle of the American economy that kept the bottom from falling out, but soon that muscle is going to tire and there isn’t anything this guy is doing that will stop that from happening because he is encouraging it. You tell me how a Commander and Chief can leave four men to die at the hand of terrorists after repeated pleas for help and then go on national TV for two weeks and tell us that a video was responsible for their deaths. And you fools re-elect a man like that. Your freedoms are going away my friend, all the stuff that the person owns this website said we should be thankful for are all the things the guy you all elected has been working on taking away, and you just gave him four more years to make that more possible. If should know how dangerous the situation is it you who runs this website, who fled Poland at a young age. Because you fled exactly what you just re-elected yesterday, and guess what the people like me who cared before, don’t care anymore, because we are going to sign up for military service because our cammander-in-chief will hang us out to dry in the face of a bunch of crazed terrorists, and won’t even have the decency to take responisibility for any of his actions. You all are fools. You dug your grave Tuesday, beware what lies ahead, and when we take back this country, you will be the last people we listen to because we’ll be so busy trying to undo the damage you have caused, and it may be that it is too late by then.
unfortunate but true.
Andy, thanks for outlining the Fox News world view. That’s precisely the worldview that the American people soundly rejected on November 6th. Put in a black and white capsule like you did so succinctly, it just doesn’t strike Americans as entirely sane. Your post is more of a snapshot of disordered thinking and white male invective than rational political discourse or political analysis. I had hoped that the election results would ‘burst the bubble’ of the solipsistic rhetoric of the right; apparently the echo-chamber persists for those who are unwilling to leave it.
Reagan left us with recession and large deficits. He said he would lower taxes, increase defense spending and balance the budget. Sound familiar? Think Romney’s plan!!
G
Andy,
Since you mentioned joining the military and you refered to the POTUS as “Commander and Chief,” I’m going to assume you’re a young guy and give you the benefit of the doubt, especially since what you wrote soubds like something you picked up from your paranoid, conspiracy theorist father at the dinner table one night. Take it from someone who lived through the Reagan years, you’re very, very wrong. As for pointing the finger at OUR president in regards to what happened at Benghazi, I hope you also took into account the fact that the GOP openly admitted to cutting the embassy security budget by 20%. Never mind the fact that under George W’s watch, a whopping 11 embassies were attacked with 50-some Americans dying as a result. President Obama’s far from perfect, but it is vital that you get your facts straight and complete before pointing fingers and claiming the world is coming to an end like another insane corner-side street preacher screaming about the apocalypse. I hope you start watching something other than Fox News and you have a good day, my friend. It’s not nearly as bad as you may have been led to believe.
Yeah…You might want to think about taking your head out of the Fox “News” trough…
Just in case you never have, if you’ve studied even basic economics, you would know that what comes up, must come down. Much like physics, actually. There will come a time that the invisible hand lifts you up to make more money and a time that it will squash you to make less. Sometimes you’ll pay more taxes, sometimes you’ll pay less.
That happens regardless of who is in the white house or on capital hill. I’m not worried about my freedoms going anywhere. In fact, I’m quite excited that those who are oppressed in this country by “God-love, Christ-fearing Christians” who mask their hatred in a thin veil of faith can actually take a step forward and grasp onto the rights that NO ONE should have denied them in the first place.
You know nothing of the danger of fleeing a country, you know nothing of true fear, and the very idea that you would compare the author’s escape from TRUE horror to your guy losing is silly, preposterous, and proves what a petty and hateful person you truly are. There’s plenty that Obama has done positive, but you’ll never see it if you don’t get off your ass, turn off Glenn and Rush, and open your eyes and your mind to something other than foolishness.
Disgusting.
Absurdity. Ignoring the years between 1980-1992, the again the years dating 2000-2008; all of the years and administrations and the parties the controlled the White House, House and Senate from 1980-2012, created this mess.
The Republicans and Democrats spend like there is no tomorrow. Both side have done nothing to right this ship. The Republicns like to enrich companies and the wealthy with tax cuts they do not need, then spend both blood and treasure on wars that never needed fighting. The Democrats insist in th transfer of wealth while saving every citizen from their own mistakes without responsibility.
Both parties sold us bad deals. Both parties lie. Both parties refuse to meet in the center. Both parties are bought and paid for by corporate and special interests.
Money controls both major parties. Vote Independent next time. Shake the political system up. Stop living your lives with blinders on. You do not control your government anymore. Money does. No conspiracy theories, just simple money.
Wake up and take back your government!
There have been 6 global recessions since the late 19th century. All of which started in the US and propagated to Europe. Greece is a casualty.
The absence of statesmen today is the consequence of the information age in my opinion. The public no longer votes for a candidate based upon his/her ideology. Today’s leaders rely on survey and public opinion polls and navigate today’s issues in a politically correct environment with an eye to re-election and partisanship. Super PAC’s prevail and put up candidates who are pliable and playable to the masses.
A voracious liberal press combined with a very active social media in a dynamically changing and economically challenged electorate make taking a conservative stand on issues a high risk endeavor. The day of the “larger than life” icons of statesmanship are history in my view. The decline of Rome may indeed compare to us. We are the new “mobocracy”.
Very well said David. My thoughts exactly.
Thank you David Collison.
Nice, David! Don’t forget Clinton’s repeal of the Glass Steagle Act and the irreversible international devastation that created in 2008 (to all but Iceland). As well as his pumping up of the housing bubble.
Bi-partisan =2 dimensions= 2 dimensional thinking
@david…that is the first thong I’ve read here that approximates the truth. I meant thing not thong, lol! Statesmanship and integrity went out of style, didn’t you hear? Nice job
well said !
Amen! We will most likely be seeing a lot more of those types of pictures, not from 9/11 but from future attacks on our great land.
None of which have occured during the tenure of our current President.
Yes, we may see another day like 9/11 here. This too is a case of other countries having it far, far worse. For example, you could be living in Iraq, where for the past decade we’ve been causing scenes like this to unfold regularly in the name of a poorly researched (ahem, fabricated) war that a different president gave congress the bum’s rush on and who conveniently forgot to pay for, leaving for the current president to put on the books.
We dole this out to other countries, we may see it again. We get surprisingly little of this.
If we see it again, we’ll deal with it.
I felt the same way when W got re-elected. I couldn’t understand how so many could re-elect a man whose cabinet members had been linked with so many scandals, who dragged us into a war that sent our economy into trillions of dollars of debt, who so badly mishandled Katrina that the effects are still being felt to this day, who was barely literate.
Let’s not forget to mention Haliburton, the savings and loan scandal, the gutting of the EPA, Abu Ghraib, general mismanagement of the entire “War on Terror” (Iraq, Afghanistan, North Korea, pick one), Valerie Plame outing, NSA warrantless wiretapping, gutting of the CIA, the Patriot Act (a complete violation of our civil liberties, which got extended), etc., etc., etc.
Damn, I could be here all night listing all of his f***-ups! Arguably the worst president in American history and he gets re-elected! Both times he was elected under questionable circumstances. Unbelievable.
Yes, and it’s funny how the majority of this country can ignore how Obama re-signed the Patriot Act multiple times, NDAA, took us into a senseless war in Libya where we lost American lives and had a tragic outcome (and lied about it), and is still pestering Iran. You do know they attempted to shoot down one of our drones over international waters (not their airspace) five days BEFORE the election? And we are just finding out about it today. Oh and you wanna talk about associating with people linked to scandals…let’s not forget about Obama’s right hand man Bill Clinton (the last Democratic Prez who started this big housing market mess in case you forgot) who got, umm, quite scandalous himself in the oval office! Let’s see what else…passing up all those jobs on the Keystone pipeline to save some birds, using the gulf oil spill to promote his plans for green energy instead of cleaning it up, Solyndra, cash for clunkers, not closing Gitmo, etc., etc., etc. Damn I could be here all night!
See any similarities to Bush? Probably not, since Obama supporters usually can’t see past his pretty speeches, but trust me they’re there. With Obama y’all think it’s ok. That’s called Kool-aid and some of you people are drowning in it.
A lot of similarities to many past presidents, many of whom got re-elected to a second term. All Presidents have made mistakes, including Obama. I am an undeclared moderate and struggled with with whom I should vote for. However, the change of stances on issues Pro-choice, now Pro-Life, Pro-gay, now anti-gay. Romney didn’t seem to have a backbone. I could not in good faith vote for a man who believes the government should be able to tell a woman what she can do with her body, or gay people they can’t marry. By a slim majority, Americans now believe gay-marriage should be legal.
And then in the third debate he agreed with Obama and his policies much of the time.
Finally, the Jeep at which lied about jobs being MOVED to China. Completely false. The Jeep plant already IN China was going to increase production to sell IN China. Jobs in the U.S> are not being shipped overseas.
“Bill” has a fantastic way of saying this. The social issues – straight, white males deciding the fates of gays and women, motivated by a fundamentalist voter base – were a part of Romney’s platform that were fairly unforgivable. I am spiritual, but religion dictating the path of our politics just means that people have an unquestionable reason for backing up their personal beliefs, which vary widely.
Obama’s a politician. I don’t like him very much because he, like anyone in his position, will be swayed by American imperialism and hegemony (which is DIFFERENT from defense – not a distinction that we like to make anymore) as well as corporate interests. But his head is at least somewhat on social issues and the defense of the middle and lower classes, unlike Romney.
Also, Clinton was an idiot in the bedroom and a brilliant politician alike. We as a country need to get over his personal life and realize the way he turned around the debt: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ea/CBO_-_Revenues_and_Outlays_as_percent_GDP.png
(Obama’s spike is mostly dealing with the recession that GWB saddled him with, but I’m sure he could have handled it better in respect to China)
tl;dr: Obama’s far from great, but he’s a far cry up from someone who thinks that he can get away with slashing taxes to the obscenely rich to “stimulate,” who virtually ignored environmental concerns, was complicit in the outing a CIA agent, etc.
He’s the lesser of two evils, *in my humble perception.*
Ugh. This is why I’m an independent.
Ya know, I was equally baffled, but it never occurred to me to go around saying it was “tragic” or “disastrous” or any of the other histrionics I’ve been hearing the last couple of days…
(while I’m generally with you – Katrina was nothing more than a gleam in the Gulf of Mexico’s eye in 2004)
Just wondering where the outrage is towards the current president’s Guantanamo Bay policy, drone attacks, continuation of the Patriot Act, war continuing, etc.
Where are the protests, the banners, the hateful vitriol?
Is it acceptable for one party to continue these policies and tactics without even a minor protest, just because he is affiliated with the Democratic Party?
If you were screaming at Bush about these things, your screaming should not stop now that Obama is in charge.
In case you weren’t paying attention, after four years with Obama, we are still at war, Guantanamo is still open for business, we are deeper in debt, drone attacks kill innocents along with their intended targets on other countries soil, Patriot Act is still here. The only thing that has changed, is that the protestors vanished because they are hypocrites.
I truly wish the best for the president and this nation, that we will see a better 4 years upcoming.
I must say, I am very happy that President Obama won. The idea of a Romney administration scared me. There were too many people who were willing to throw half of the country under the bus to save their own hides. To me, that is unacceptable in a nation where we are to help one another and uplift one another for the betterment of the whole. You are right about many things. I don’t agree with droning, I find it despicable. Guantanamo Bay is a policy disaster and definitely violates human rights and Afghanistan is a disaster. That being said, our President has much to rectify and I hope he will do so in these next four years.
I’m not screaming about those things because I have studied our political system well enough to know that fixing any of those things is far more complex than simply giving an order. I would suggest that other people do the same if they want to truly understand what goes on in our society. Ending a war or closing a prison is nowhere near as simple as just commanding that it be done. There are hoops that have to be jumped. Our president is not all powerful leader. The inefficiency that keeps him from doing all that we want him to was built into our system from the very beginning to prevent him from becoming so.
I couldn’t agree more.
I am completely disgusted by all my supositly liberal democrat friends who don’t care in the least bit that Obama, as they say in much of Latin America, “sounds like Obama, acts like Bush.” I personally call him Obushma. But that seldom gets me any friends.
But, I will say that I think Romney would have been worse. I felt terrible the day after the election when I realized I had been hoping that a canidate that I despise would win.
@Just wondering,
I don’t know how you can say that there haven’t been protests against Obama’s drone strikes. I’ve been in some of them. There have been fewer, and smaller, protests against Obama’s war policies since he didn’t start Iraq or Afghanistan but there were certainly protests against Libya. As for Guantanamo bay, you can’t really blame him for the fact that it’s still running. He tried to close it and Republicans stopped him at every turn. There was also plenty of noise from the left when he signed the re-authorization of the Patriot Act.
So yes, after 4 years of Obama we’re still at war, but we’re in 1 fewer wars than we were when he took office. Bush started 2 and ended none. Obama started 1 and ended 2. Guantanamo is open for business because Republicans won’t let him move the prisoners to solitary confinement in SuperMAX prisons in the USA, as though they’re Superman or Magneto or something. We are deeper in debt and we would be regardless of whether Obama, McCain or Romney were in charge. Same with the drone strikes.
So, you can disagree with Obama’s policies. I disagree with some and agree with others myself. You just can’t say that there haven’t been any protests against them. Even on the left there have been plenty of anti-Obama protests. We just realize that voting in Romney wasn’t going to improve anything.
We might hear them if it wasn’t for the absolute poppycock that is constantly spewed from the right.
Let me know how that birth certificate, college transcript, and “OMG he’s a Muslim Kenyan” thing turns out, K?
alkfjdsoi, some of those things you mentioned that happened under Bush happened after he was re-elected. Please get your facts straight before posting.
The comment regarding W resonates with me. I was startled both that people would re-elect him and that like in a third world country, his brother would call in judicial favors in order to muck the election results. In the end, W is considered the worst president in history. He was not even invited to the republican convention! If you listen to Obama-haters, you will find none that have anything concrete to hate him about. Even on here, some guy is talking about voting for the healtcare law- he has no idea that he is not a congressman. Anyway, at least the vitriol will die down soon.
Wow! How’s that blood pressure medicine working for you? You might want to have that checked to make sure it’s working because it looks as if you’re one heartbeat away from a stroke! Let it go, man!
The above comment was in reply to another post but it was placed in the wrong location. Hmmm….
With all due respect…. Bush did not “mishandle” Katrina……. Ray Nagin and the people who would not leave NO and the people who looked at it as an opportunity to become violent are the ones “guilty” of most of it……..
“the people who would not leave NO”
With all due respect, how were the people with no car, with no money for gas or hotels, with no place to go, supposed to leave NO?
The lack of empathy for your fellow Americans is disappointing.
ladyonamishn, you have absolutely no idea what happened during Katrina. A vast majority of people that live here, did not have the means to just get up and leave NOLA. Have you ever set foot here, do you not know that a vast amount of the population live from day to day, the elderly and the poor. Or don’t you care about that segment of society? There were NO options for them, and because they were not very important to alot of people they were left in the Super Dome or floating in the streets. You are correct, Nagin did not do a good job, but that is just the tip of the iceberg. “You are doing a great job Brownie” is a quote that will live in imfamy down here. So do not ever sit there smug in you unflooded home and tell me about Katrina. Come down and see all the houses and neighborhoods that are still devestated and will never come back. Come and see all the houses that still have the big red X’s on them to denote dead bodies, and then you maybe (but I doubt it) you will be able to see that people did not “choose” to stay here and yes. President Bush certainly did not have our backs as a president should for ALL Americans. By the way, NOLA and her people are doing OK, because that my friend is New Orleans!!
I am a native New Orleanian AND a first responder in the aftermath of Katrina. If you were not there, you have no right to judge — refer to what Kathryn said, please, because she said it so well, but some of us stood on the Interstate and watched while the National Guard WAITED FOR ORDERS to enter New Orleans. Much to the despair of the Guardsmen who truly wanted to help, they waited for DAYS under orders. One thing you will NOT see: New Orleanians snarking at New Yorkers, “why didn’t you leave? Why do you live there when disasters happen all the time? Why do you live on the coast when you know there will be storms?” No New Orleanian will EVER say that to a New Yorker. We KNOW what it’s like to live in a city where many people — mostly elderly — have no car and depend on public transit. We know what it is like to love a place for its culture, because if you grow up in New Orleans or New York it’s very, very hard to live just “anyplace” else. I suppose if you grew up in a suburb at the intersection of two interstate highways and your local “culture” is a collection of strip malls , Outbacks and Applebees, you CAN live “anywhere” else. New Orleans loves and understand New York because we know what it’s like and NO ONE has a right to judge anyone who is too poor to have a car, or too old to help themselves. Why the hell don’t some of you commenters leave the fire/earthquake/tornado/flood zone where YOU live?
Well said Dex. You people were and are godsends!! Don’t you love New Orleans!! Who Dat
alkfjdsoi,
I’d just like to remind you that Katrina happened in August, 2005 – almost a full year AFTER the 2004 election. It would be pretty difficult for voters to know how a president would handle a natural disaster 10 months BEFORE it even happened. Prior to the 2004 election Saddam Hussein’s and the Taliban’s regimes had recently been toppled and, although fighting the insurgency was escalating, in November 2004 we were on the winning side. We had also re-elected a president who had handled the immediate aftermath of 9/11 with grace and honor, and with a deep respect toward the families of those who were lost that tragic day. And let’s not forget that we also voted against his opponent who, as a Senator, voted FOR the war in Iraq.
I’d also like to remind you that in November, 2004, the economy had not yet plunged into recession and was not an issue of that election cycle. Alternatively, the economy “seemed” to be rebounding from almost having fallen into recession the year earlier. The November 2004 unemployment rate was 5.4% and had dropped almost a full percentage point from the prior year – in large part because of the second round of tax cuts. In 2012 it is pretty easy to look back and watch the path that occurred – rising debt from the never-ending wars, banking de-regulation from both Bush’s and Clinton’s policies that led to the housing bubble and collapse – and wonder what may have happened had we elected either Gore or Kerry. My guess is that not a whole lot would be different. A President Al Gore would have had to respond to 9/11 with force. A President John Kerry would not be able to bring the troops home any faster. But hindsight is 20/20 and foresight is nothing more than a calculated gamble.
alkfjdsoi,
1. Bush cabinet members linked to scandals… O’s cabinet mired in Fast & Furious, Benghazi massacre & coverup, Kathleen Sebelius electioneering, Leaking military secrets (Seal Team 6), violating the WARN Act (Lockheed Martin), etc..
2. The War was approved by a Democratic controlled Congress, not just by Bush. O unilaterally decided to bomb Libya without the approval of Congress and he increased military presence in Afghanistan. If you want to look at true abuse of power, examine the 140 EXECUTIVE ORDERS O has enacted paying close attention to the one that permits the indefinite detention of American citizens.
3. Katrina was a disaster because the governor of LA failed to formally request help (that triggers a FEMA response). However, that isn’t a guarantee that residents will get any help, just ask the people on Staten Island whom O’s FEMA deserted after Sandy.
4. Bush graduated from the same school as O.
5. Halliburton… see #1.
6. S&L scandal… the Senate oversight committees for Fannie & Freddie were warned as early as 1995 that the housing market could collapse if not restructured and this collapse would take the financial market with it. Dems Schumer, Dodd, Frank, Reid, etc. were overseeing the committee and failed to act because they were making $$$ (aka. research Goldman Sachs).
7. EPA… Bush’s EPA sued and won billions of dollars from companies violating the NSR ($1.2 billion alone from Virginia Electric Power). O spent $20.5 billion dollars on green energy companies, most of which went bankrupt within 2 years.
8. Valerie Plume… comparable to Biden’s national security leak exposing the Seals who took out Osama. Klayman (former DOJ prosecutor) is seeking to indict O and Biden for these leaks.
9. NSA wiretapping… the renewal of NSA was opposed by a single Democratic Senator when it came before Congress. Obama advocated continuing NSA without detailing how it was to be used.
10. CIA gutting… comparable to the $900 billion O is taking from next year’s Pentagon budget.
11. And now, my favorite, The PATRIOT ACT… written by none other than V.P. JOE BIDEN, circa 1995.
If you think Bush was the worst president in American history, you need to do some more research on the current administration.
Its tragic that so many people recite talking points without any real knowledge of facts,like you.
It was Bush, a Republican president, that started sing that charge card. Maybe everyone should stop pointing fingers and start working on the problem. Both sides have to compromise, meaning neither side will be completely happy. They’ll have to get over it in order to fix our problems. I can almost guarantee that Obama will extend a hand of compromise first, and I’ll be shocked if the other side DOESN’T slap it away.
It’s tragic that your memory is so poor that you were willing to vote for a party that started two very expensive wars with no plan to pay for them. They necessitated the actions of our current and wonderful President who, like all other Dems before him, will now fix the mess your party made.
You CLEARLY didn’t get the meaning of this post. If stupidity outnumbers intelligence, then you sir, are the leader of the pack.
If you did your real homework on this campaign you would know that Obama does not “charge” it all to China. There are other places. It’s tragic that Romney wanted to completely eliminate federal funding to all planned parenthood and take away the Plan B birth control pill which would cause billions more in debt for all those who could not prevent pregnancy like they wish among several other health issues addressed there. Food stamps, WIC, welfare, heating assistance, paid school lunch, clothes vouchers, housing assistance, and the list goes on.
They both spent billions of dollars to bash each other in which both made about the same amount of false statements. Both claims of outrageous taxing on middle class were false. You seem to enjoy that run as well. If either of them really cared about the U.S. they would have used those billions of dollars else where. Stupid means you can’t learn and yes that is tragic, but then again individuals who are truly “stupid” are very unlikely to be able to vote. Ignorance is choosing not to self-educate before speaking. Ignorance is the pitfall of this country and the cause of tragedy, and embarrassing.
These are beautiful thoughts.
Is anyone truly ‘surprised’ by what friends and family members said/wrote the day after the election? Did reasonable, calm, intelligent, and well-educated folks suddenly start frothing at the mouth and spouting ignorant nonsense? Doubtful. I think we all knew who around us would respond in which tones and manners. I wish Facebook offered a way to completely block someone for a temporary time. I believe friendships would be saved in this way.
While I agree that I was disappointed with the outcome of the election, tragic would not be the adjective I would use, perhaps unfortunate! Yet even so, it was the boooing of Romney while giving his speech seceded. I listen to people every day that “beat-down” both men but truthfully, do you think you could do better, or put yourself through the ridicule each an every candidate did on their run for the White House? The job may seem glamorous but in theis case, which I have not felt in many years, the candidates truly were there because of their love and affection for the United States, her people, and their families that will be the recipients of the eventual outcome whjen and how that ever cpomes to fruitian.
“It’s tragic that so many citizens voted for the same policies that put Greece into turmoil”
Sigh, in Greece the rich do not pay taxes. So actually Romney would have been closer to that, because he wanted that across the board cut which wouldn’t have helped the economy.
“Almost all of the stimulative effect of tax cuts,” Zidar found, “results from tax cuts for the bottom 90 percent. A one percent of GDP tax cut for the bottom 90 percent results in 2.7 percentage points of GDP growth over a two-year period. The corresponding estimate for the top 10 percent is 0.13 percentage points and is insignificant statistically.”
http://blogs.reuters.com/taxbreak/2012/09/12/which-tax-cuts-stimulate-the-economy/
Romney was and is a fraud.
Romney: “I am big believer in getting money where the money is. The money is in Washington.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgYLBk_0t6w
But to go back to Greece.
(Translated article)
Pensions for the dead, filthy-rich pay zero taxes and voters for the former government were rewarded with jobs in the public sector. [Republicans create MORE government jobs in USA. See bloomberg story “Private Jobs Increase More With Democrats in White House” for source]
Greece’s dilemma is its mentality, says one of the country’s highest-profile economists, Yannis Stournaras in an interview with SVD. Greece has the lowest tax revenue in the euro zone. The black economy has annual sales of around 59 billion, a quarter of the official economy, according to IOBE. Instead of reported 324 swimming pools in wealthy neighborhoods in the northern Athens satellite images showed last year that there were nearly 17 000. 70 percent of independent doctors, lawyers and architects do not pay a single euro in taxes. The other 30 percent pay at least a little, says Yannis Stournaras. But it was Kostas Karamanlis bourgeois government in 2004-2009 which blew up the public sector with over 100 000 new jobs … people who are largely rewarded for their political loyalty to a position as in Greece is worth gold. During the same period, wages in the public sector rose by 60 percent.
And back to USA:
CBO states that millions of jobs will be created in the next few years.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/wp/2012/10/16/fact-check-romneys-12-million-jobs/
Just think for a minute Who voted for out president. Its one thing to’ have a strong social system that protects the most disadvantaged, but its a very different situation to’feed and provide with material and social goods young, capable and not willing to provide for themselves waiting for handouts. Unfortunatelly people don’t realize that these people are the ones who elected our president.
It is the greatest country in a world, and we hope it stays this way. 4 years doesn’t seem like a very Long term but the road we are on can become a road with no return.
“’feed and provide with material and social goods young, capable and not willing to provide for themselves waiting for handouts. Unfortunatelly people don’t realize that these people are the ones who elected our president.”
Charlie you couldn’t be more wrong. Not one person I know who voted for the President comes anywhere close to what you described. They are all successful, financially stable and hard working with good jobs. That’s a convenient stereotype you have there. Actually, if I’m honest with you, *every* person I know in my life who is currently on some sort of government assistance voted for Romney.
Charlie, I hate to tell you this but I voted for Obama and I’m not looking for any handouts. I own a small business, I work hard and I am nothing like what you’re describing in your post. This 47% narrative that you’re apparently promoting just isn’t based in reality. Yes, there are moochers in the system but to lump all Obama supporters into that category is just laziness and ignorance on your part.
Not true Charlie. This 40-something, white woman who works full time in a professional job, and spends most of my evenings and part of every weekend on a side business that I am part owner of – I am a successful, driven American, and I voted for Obama.
One of the most destructive myths out there right now is the one about the hordes of people unwilling to work, just waiting for the government dole. Sure, there are some people like that but their numbers are greatly exaggerated. Most poor people I’ve known (I come from poor) have been hard workers, doing whatever they need to do to keep jobs, struggling to just stay afloat.
What I’m interested in is the right sized government – one that ensures we all have access to education, good roads, safe communities, freely-flowing commerce that isn’t concentrated in the hands of the few. Sane military policy though that doesn’t seem likely from anyone. And yes, I want them to protect Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, unemployment benefits. None of those are “entitlements” — those are systems I and every worker pays into out of every paycheck. I’ve been paying in for almost 30 years, and I damn well better have it there when I’m intact, in the same format that my grandparents and parents had it there for them. Especially considering I’ve already paid more into it than they ever did.
Then you voted for the wrong guy…. remember, he wants to take AWAY from your small business & give it to those who are too lazy to work… remember Joe the Plumber… obama said it plain as day himself, so it isn’t a Republican spin. Romney was the best person to help small business owners, he was a very successful small business owner… but for some weird reason, Liberals/Democrats get all mad at people for living the American dream of being financially successful in their careers IF they happen to be Republican… they are hypocrites for criticizing Romney for being worth 250 million but say nary a word against Democrat mayor Bloomberg who is worth 25 BILLION!! Go figure :/
@ Endy: I think you will find the comments by David Stockman, who worked in the Reagan White House, to be edifying regarding Mitt Romney’s success in business:
“Mitt Romney was not a businessman; he was a master financial speculator who bought, sold, flipped, and stripped businesses. He did not build enterprises the old-fashioned way—out of inspiration, perspiration, and a long slog in the free market fostering a new product, service, or process of production. Instead, he spent his 15 years raising debt in prodigious amounts on Wall Street so that Bain could purchase the pots and pans and castoffs of corporate America, leverage them to the hilt, gussy them up as reborn “roll-ups,” and then deliver them back to Wall Street for resale—the faster the better.
That is the modus operandi of the leveraged-buyout business, and in an honest free-market economy, there wouldn’t be much scope for it because it creates little of economic value. But we have a rigged system—a regime of crony capitalism—where the tax code heavily favors debt and capital gains, and the central bank purposefully enables rampant speculation by propping up the price of financial assets and battering down the cost of leveraged finance.”
David Stockman served as a Republican U.S. Representative from the state of Michigan (1977–1981) and as the Director of the Office of Management and Budget under President Ronald Reagan.
Sorry, Charlie, but your categorization of those who voted for Obama are preposterous and simply false. It may make you feel better to think that only lazy, entitled people voted for Obama, but that is simply not borne out by the actual facts. For instance, I’m fully employed, have never collected welfare or an unemployment check and voted for Obama. Sorry to burst your self-serving bubble.
Why is the outrage to handouts targeted at the perception of the poor who are unwilling to work, and not at the BILLIONS in subsidies given to corporations such as those in the oil industry with RECORD PROFITS? If you are outraged because you think 47% of the population doesn’t want to work, then you are guilty of buying into the machine that is churning out that mis-information to create a political scism. LOOK at where are $$ is going AMERICAN.
Charlie, I’m an attorney bringing home hundreds of thousands of dollars a year and paying lots of taxes – and I voted for Obama. Why? Because I place the wellbeing of all Americans over the well-being of the most fortunate portion of our society. I have empathy for folks who weren’t given the same opportunities as I was. If you want to consider me, and many millions just like me, as part of “these people,” go right ahead. I’m proud to be part of that so-called 47% who cares about my fellow human beings.
Not EVERYONE who voted for Obama is living off the government, with an unwillingness to work and expecting handouts. People who work the system have been around for a very long time and will find a way to do what they think is best for themselves and their families no matter who is president. Where is the HOPE in people anymore. I hoped we would continue with the current president because I am a married mother of three young children, my husband is going to school full time (on loans) in hopes of his graduating will insure a brighter, more stable future for our children. I work full time, we do not have health insurance for myself or my husband which is fine for me (I’m pretty healthy) but my husband is not. We cannot afford to have health insurance and still pay our monthly bills that are more immediate and for the moment more important. My children thankfully have medicaid. I AM so thankful that there may be a HOPE of my husband and I being able to go see a dr about his diabetes or high blood pressure with a positive possibility of some help instead of the only solution we have now, going to the ER with a massive bill we struggle to pay and only a quick fix of ongoing problems we’re left with. IF ROMNEY WOULD HAVE HAD A MEDICAL PLAN THAT I COULD SEE HELPING MY FAMILY I WOULD HAVE VOTED FOR HIM.
If you want to take a good look at who voted for our president, it was nearly 53% of the popular vote, which means liberals, moderates, independents and yes, even some republicans voted to keep him in office. And while you try to lump all 53% of those people into the category of lazy, do-nothing, handout-wanters (I suggest you do a little research into the demographics of this election rather than continue to post propaganda snippets like this), the greatest thing about our country is that the poor, the sick, the elderly and the disenfranchised (these handout people you are speaking of, the ones receiving assistance, they include elderly on medicare, most of whom worked the whole of their lives, retired people drawing on their social security, all of whom worked and paid into social security for their entire adult lives, military pensioners, people who were injured or disabled on their JOBS and who can no longer perform their jobs, people who responsibly use welfare in exactly the manner for which it was meant, as a temporary solution while they get back on their feet) are allowed to (and obviously do) vote for their president.
It is not 1953 anymore. The times have changed. It is time for the conservative party to wake up and acknowledge that this country is made up of diverse AND GROWING populations of informed voters (independent women, latinos, blacks, gays, lesbians, people who feel it is their duty as human beings to look after one another) and if it doesn’t begin to EVOLVE and embrace more modern ideas and broader solutions, then the right will continue to lose by larger and larger margins.
Charlie I am not sure what trailer park you live in but you really should try to get out more. I along with others in my circle voted for President Obama and we are all upper middle class, college educated, hard-working individuals. I know that when people say that “only people on welfare and people who want handouts voted for the President” that that is code for only black people voted for him. But, since you only polled people in your trailer park…let me be the one to educate you. Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, Latinos, and many other races voted for President Obama. And yes, people on welfare, food stamps, Medicare, and other forms of “government handouts” voted for President Obama. But I can assure you that just as many welfare recipients voted for Romney……oh, were you under the impression that only minorities are on welfare?? I once worked for the Department of Human Services and trust me there many whites who receive “handouts” and they are some of the most vile, uneducated, racist individuals that I have come across and I am sure they are all Romney supporters!!
Hey Charlie,
Just to let you know, I WAS on the government dole. After my second tour in a war I didn’t support, I got back to find there were no jobs in my area. I applied for unemployment because I had no other way to support my wife and child. I also used my government hand-out GI Bill to get educated, and my government hand-out VA disability pension to help pay the rent. I was even on food stamps for a bit because, even with everything else, I could barely make ends meet. Keep in mind, like most other people I knew in such financial hardship, I never stopped looking for a job that just didn’t exist. I didn’t want to be on public assistance, but I also didn’t want to move in to a refrigerator box with my family.
Now, a few years later, I am fully employed as a Software Engineer, as well as attending graduate school (still using that good old GI Bill) in an effort to continue bettering my situation. I voted for Obama, not because I want hand-outs (I am doing way too well for myself now to get those), but because I want people who are put into the worst situations to have the opportunity to survive while trying to pull themselves up.
Akerubbish….. It’s tragic that you are buying the party line without knowing any actual facts. But I will agree with your last statement.
Um, no. Greece was among the lowest in the “welfare state” category, having extremely low social welfare spending in comparison to some of the more solvent countries like Germany. Thge problem with Greece is that they don’t make anything. Their soiol is not conducive to a wide range of crops like in other areas, and industry is practically nonexistent. What they do have is tourism which immediately got shot to hell when the global recession hit. So they import goods, vastly more than other countries in their area. The normal way to handle vast trade deficits, a.k.a. Balance of Trade, is to allow the currency to be devalued which offsets the imbalance. But, that can’t happen if you are tied to the same currency, with the same value, as your trading partners. So, the inverse happened. They got massive inflation. And when the world’s financial system nearly went bust, they got screwed.
“Its tragic that stupidity out numbers intelligence here in the United States!”
Outnumbers is one word. Guess you should count yourself among the numbered.
it’s tragic that you’re so embarrassed by your own comment that you won’t post your real name
It’s tragic because half this country re-elected a President that has no respect for the Constitution. Obamacare is unconstitutional and sad they found a loophole to push it through.
An (imperfect) Analogy
The Constitution (and the federal government it brought into existence) was created by the states to serve the states. It sets forth the rules for how the government must behave and says, in effect (in the tenth amendment) “Any powers that we did not give to you are ours; we’re still the boss.”
This is like exercising parental control. You tell your child how to act, with
whom he (or she) may associate and what time he must be home. You assign household chores and responsibilities. In short, you establish rules of proper conduct.
Suppose that this works fine for a while, but as your child grows, he begins testing the boundaries you had set and breaking the rules, but you do nothing to prevent it. One day you realize that your child is making his own rules, even telling you what to do and what you cannot do. If you object that he is not acting within the rules you set down, he says that he knows better than you what your rules mean. If you try to assert your own rights, you are punished — your child is now bigger and stronger than you are. Your child’s allowance demands are ever increasing. If you don’t do something to correct the situation soon, you’ll be declared incompetent and your child will control all aspects of your life.
It’s time to remember who’s the boss, time for the states to regain control of a government which thinks the states are subordinate to it. The federal government exists to serve the states, not the other way around. The states have the right and the duty to restrain the federal government. Unfortunately, most state governments don’t seem to understand this!
“It’s tragic because half this country re-elected a President that has no respect for the Constitution. Obamacare is unconstitutional and sad they found a loophole to push it through. ”
Really? Because the Supreme Court of the United States, including your beloved Chief Justice, does not agree with you, with the exception of one specific provision in the bill. You think you know more about the Constitution than they do????
kma is precisely the sort of person with no sense of historical context or self-restraint that this post is intended to address.
kma, we fought the Civil War over your states’ rights retention theory, and it lost. The 10th Amendment (which is the predicate for your theory of inter-government structure) was actually rendered ineffective during the Federalist period early in the 19th Century. Feel free to obtain some facts on this subject.
TRAGIC??. I felt the same way about Dubya. He was the one that started most of the krap that PRESIDENT Obama and our great country is dealing with today. Stupidity?? Did you read that 51% percent of college graduates voted for PRESIDENT Obama??? Is it that you can’t read or maybe you just don’t like to be able to back up your ramblings!!!! By the way when did “so many Americans” vote on the Health care law? I believe OUR congress did that…
You and your likeminded tea baggers are a major part of the PROBLEM.
WELL SAID!
Why don’t you ‘research’ a store that sells real mirrors, buy one, look into it and see the reflection of a truly bigoted image…YOU!
So, akejf (or whoever you are). It sounds like election day actually WAS more tragic in your eyes that 911.
You do realise that the problem with Greece is that very few people, espceically their wealthy pay any taxes at all. They have 16% of world shipping and their shipping industry is constitutionally protected from paying any taxes (think Onassis) if JUST their shipping paid some taxes their deficit would be half of what it is. As it is Now the EU minister Lagarde has drawn up a list of 2000 ultra Rich Greeks who have escaped paying taxes for years by having all of their money in Swiss accounts. Since the list came out two of them supposedly have committed suicide. Greece’s problem is the same as the US’s problem in that their ultra Rich (like Romney) have not paid any taxes in Decades. Oh yeah Harry Reid was right, he used his church to hide his income for over 10 years until he decided to run for office. It was in what is called a unittrust. And he is just ONE of them, just like Greece. http://www.businessinsider.com/greek-men-on-lagarde-list-found-dead-2012-10
Well, stupidity didn’t quite outnumber intelligence. If you take a look at the top 10 most educated states, they ALL voted for Obama. And 9 out of 10 of the least educated states voted for Romney (NV went to Obama). Now, do the math!
” It’s tragic that stupidity out numbers intelligence here in the United States!”
Should read:
” It’s tragic that stupidity outnumbers intelligence here in the United States!”
One ranting about intelligence should proofread.
I agree with you and with her…..it is just sad how much immaturity overlooks that we have just exercised what we have the right to do….some act like it is not our right unless we think their way!! We are so blessed to have this right and we have our service men to thank for that!
Thank you, Jo, for your perspective and for yours, too, Rachel.
Very well said, and very true. How easy it is to forget what blessings we have when we get wrapped up in election fever. When the dust settles, some are happy and some are disappointed, but all are free. Thanks for your perspective.
America is still the best place on planet Earth to live. I served this country during the Viet Nam war. I am proud to be an American. I am proud that you can freely express your negative views; although I think you are stupid for doing so. There, I expressed my view, now I feel better, and I am going to try to aid the individuals and animals that can use some help after “Superstorm” Sandy.
So, what are you doing to help make this a better place for all?
America is no longer the greatest place in the world. It has fallen below tenth place in all surveys and research. From economic development , healthy people, happy people, to a place where the word debt is used in every meeting of federal leaders. Although 1 thing that hasnt changed is that Americans are the most patriotic and loyal patrons to their country, in which I applaud. As for the election…. im a strong believer that every president puts things into motion near their end of their first 4 so the voters will offer up another 4 years to complete the things that they have done in the previous 4. When bush was in and going for re-election , it almost seemed criminal to put someone else in to clean up his disastrous mess. I think the vote turned out to be closer than it really should have been. Obama has proven to be to a decent president. Not saying he has done everything right, but he did also take over the country that was in the biggest downward spiral. That is not an easy undertaking at all..
I have to comment on this because I saw so many similar statuses like this blog post on my feed the other day.
3 Points I would like to make:
1- I say it is sad and tragic when my favorite football team loses. I do not think it is the same thing as a terrorist attack. It’s colorful language and everyone uses it at times. Unfortunately, this is a problem with social media- it is too easy to misinterpret text.
2- Saying it is “sad and tragic” is not the same thing as calling Obama a terrorist. We all have people on our feeds that say some crazy things. Since most of my feed consists of liberals, trust me, I get some WAY out of line comments on the other side of the political spectrum.
3-My mom is also an immigrant and grew up in dire circumstances- I’ve had family members thrown in jail, killed, died because they couldn’t get proper medical care- and I was very upset that Romney didn’t win, BUT WOULDN’T LIVE ANYWHERE ELSE. Just because you aren’t happy with the direction the country is going in, doesn’t mean you want to up and leave.
I really hate how conservatives that are just upset because their candidate lost, are somehow being lumped into one group and being cast as whiney, ungrateful citizens who think Obama is a terrorist. This is the exact problem that is wrong with our political climate today- marginalization, and yes it happens on both sides. The reality is that politics is a very passionate subject, and I would have expected liberals to have been equally sad if Obama had not won. It has only been a few days. Give 1/2 the country that voted for Romney some time to simmer down.
Thank you! This was perfectly stated!
Jo Ashline – 2016! 🙂
Rachel, I love your remark. Would you mind if I copy and paste that to my Facebook page?
I agree, you said it very well Jo. Let’s remember to pray for our President and our Country to be united as one nation under God.
Pretty good analysis unless you feel like some of us that we are headed for a fisical cliff that will plunge us into chaos. If you think people here were threatening to riot if Romney was elected, I doubt they will turn into good citizens if there is hyper inflation or a food shortage. Sometimes you don’t get a chance to do it again in 4 years. This is my fear.
haven’t you heard? we had plunged off the fiscal cliff some time before electing Obama the first time. AND – while our growth is called “anemic” by the Reps, Anemic growth is far better than, a very different from – spiraling out of control – which was where we were before the last election. Gratefully, according to the exit polling, many who voted for Obama – remembered that the horrible economic issues preceded him. And – perhaps – if those in congress who swore on the day of the election 4 years ago to ensure that Obama fail, and who have blocked all bills to help unemployed & vets – just to ensure that Obama fail – were to begin to work in a non-partisan manner, with the best interest of all Americans at heart – we might just change the growth from Anemic to healthy. Let us hope together for better days.
I thought I was the only person to remember that statement about making sure Obama failed and the efforts to guarantee that outcome…problem was that if our President failed, the country failed. People kept asking ” Are you better off now than 4 years ago?”, well, not really but We are all a heck of alot better than we would have been if it weren’t for the auto industry bailouts and as much as I dislike the results of the bank bailouts, it was necessary.
Not all auto companies took the bailouts and they are the companies that are flourishing.
American car companies took the bail outs and they are flourishing now. GM and Chrysler were bailed out. If they failed many more businesses would have failed, from. Parts suppliers to car dealers. With parts suppliers failing, Ford would not have what it needed and would fail too.
So what companies are you talking about? Japanese owned ones?
That’s right Megan. The companies that took the bailout are very near bancruptcy even after having taken the “so called bailout”. It’s truly a joke that they call it a bailout, like ah, for who? Solyndra??? As far as I’m concerned they should have let the auto industry go belly up because the free market takes natural care of itself, no government interception necessary. Instead, in the guise of a so called “bailout”, a word that makes the public feel artificially comfortable, it has only denied a hastier and mor thorough recovery. Since when can the government run anything and if they had money to bail anything how about starting with their own ineptly run operations such as the United State Postal Service, or even better the Veterans Administration. What a joke! It’s like the pot calling the kettle black. But furthurmore the government has regulated and over regulated the auto industry, banking, and many others such as mining, so much that we can’t be anywhere close to competitive in America. Yes, our government is the crimnal here. There has never been a government in our whole world history that has ever been able to run a business. Russi, China, North Korea? Just try to find one. It takes the free market to do that and why you might ask? Because the free market has to answer to the public that supports them. The government NEVER does. The government decides and you take what they give you whether you like it or not. The way they do that is to eliminate competition and then guess what the quality is after that. You will have no other choice. Everyone learn their history and forget what those wildly Liberal teachers taught you in school. THEY WERE WRONG.
Most of the ones that took bail out money spent it on lavish vacations and huge bonuses for there upper ranks.
Respectfully….wrong. 🙂
That does not matter since all the companies paid back the loans with INTEREST. But the truth of the matter is that they are in fact doing well. If you research you could easily find the truth. Instead you make blanket statements that have no facts.
Ford didn’t need a bailout at all. Why? Because the majority of the cars and trucks they make aren’t garbage. Plus, parts are swappable between the Ford version and the Lincoln version, which isn’ the same with GM cars. At one point, GM built 8 DIFFERENT 350 small blocks, and most major parts like cylinder heads, intakes, exhaust, etc… were not compatible.
Can You name them Megan?
@pam… are you kidding me?!? banks are over-regulated? seriously… how could you even type that!
@Pam, the USPS is struggling because of a consorted right wing effort from the congress to undermine it. The VA is another story. You are painting with too broad a brush. You claim that government can do nothing, or does worse than nothing. The public sector is not a business, Pam, nor should it be. I stand proudly behind the works of my government. Too many to list, but to name a few; the big things like spaceships, to the little things like safe drinking water, and in between all the science research and public education and the Interstate system and bridges and busting up monopolies and fire departments and should I go on? Things the free market cannot do, or do well. The public sector is very good at very many things that we all benefit tremendously from, Pam. Saying that government is terrible at everything, and then generalizing all governments as being akin to the DPRK is disingenuous. You say that in a marketplace, the consumer decides. Sure, that’s well and good, but you also say that citizens have no say in their government. Do you not live in a representative democracy? Are you not civically engaged in your community?
REALLY? which ones would those be?
Something’s really been bothering me, which I didn’t really notice until the campaign. People will flat out lie in a public forum with apparently no regard for maintaining their own integrity. Or almost as bad, they’ll hear or see something online somewhere, assume its accurate, or not really care whether it is or not, and post it themselves as though it’s fact. Verify your statements people! You have the source of publically available data at your fingertips, so look it up first, find the original source, make sure its legitimate. If its real, it will be on many web sites of varying perspectives.
To Megan and others making false claims on here about the auto industry, Romney made those same lies and got called on it already, so there’s no chance you’ll get away with it either. Don’t embarrass yourself.
When you see an online post you like, try being a little skeptical, and go find out the truth, before you share it. Many online rumors are investigated on sites such as snopes.com or factcheck.org. I don’t share anything on facebook until I check it out and confirm its validity.
Just last week, someone posted “Obama’s new tax plan” making claims about his numbers. I looked it up on google and on snopes.com and found out it was false. It had been posted to snopes.com and proved inaccurate way back in 2008 … you guessed it … a lie used during the 2008 campaign against Obama, so they weren’t even original.
We can’t even have intelligent debates with you when your facts are so wrong, so we have to disregard you and distrust you. That probably didn’t help Romney win any votes.
@Megan the only American car company that did not take the bailout was Ford and they are the ones who get downed the most.
As far as the bailout goes we (Americans) let them off too easy. We allowed GM & Chrysler to void millions of warranties, bankrupt thousands of dealers and once they were out of trouble hop right back on the bandwagon. We should have forced them to change their failed policies of running a business. They needed to force upper management to give back bonuses take pay cuts whatever it took to teach them a lesson. We have more power than we exercise so we need to use it besides during presidential elections…
@Pam the banking industry isn’t regulated enough… Just because you make rules and regulations does not mean they will be enforced or followed. The banking industry is a large part of the reason why we are in such economic straits. The fraudulent lending they were doing while also over valuing homes turned the housing market upside down. Hundreds of people made millions meanwhile thousands of people are losing everything they worked for.
The problem with our government and many more they have old blood in there they tend to become corrupted and greedy. Government is not and should not be a family business where you hand it down to your sons and daughters so they can continue to carry out your failed policies and rhetoric. We need stricter rules on upper management you should not be draining your company for personal gain (bonuses, expense accounts, etc.) while the works are losing their livelihood. The company fail you foot the bill not the works, then we will see some change in the economy. Make people accountable for their greedy behavior.
The auto bailout? Thats odd that you say that right after people blame Bush but it WAS BUSH THAT STARTED THE BAILOUTS!!! Yes, the problems started while he was in office but it was Dems that were in charge of the house & senate for the majority of the time. Bush started the financial reform, Bush started the bailouts. Bush started us in the right direction. The housing problems started in 1991 when Clinton passed his law saying ANYONE could get a loan. well, all the years later the housing fell because ANYONE could get a loan but not everyone could pay their loans. Its rediculous when people make their statements just from Obamas talking points. Maybe you should actually KNOW or read to find out what you are talking about before you post.
Um it would have been very hard for Clinton to pass a law in 1991 considering he wasn’t elected until 1992…………..maybe you should take your own advice you gave in your last sentence….just sayin’
Your poor grammar and spelling make it seems like you’re babbling Jenny.
You obviously have been listening to Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh for your facts. Please talk to someone that worked in the industry and still does. I worked for Fifth Third in the time when they were conning their customers into second mortgages to pay for things they didn’t need. I am now a licensed realtor in the state of Michigan, one of the hardest hit. I know all sides of it and I saw more people than I could shake a stick at that went to close only to be told that oops that 30 year fixed they wanted had to be changed to a 7 year ARM, but don’t worry, we will just refinance you before that happens and everything will be fine! Oh, and that loan you just took out the bank bundled with other loans they knew were doomed to fail and sold them as a AAA package to make more bad loans. That was not the governments doing, that was the greed of the banks because they were making money hand over fist and the government had stepped out of the way the way the Republicans keep saying they need to and were no longer regulating any of it. It all comes down to greed. Please check your facts and quit listening to the sound bites they feed you. I am part of the working poor. I put in 60 hours a week between owning my own company, full time student and Real Estate. Don’t believe what people tell you about the 47%. I am white, educated and have strong religious values and I love my neighbors as the Bible tells me to just for your information when you hear the talk radio radicals telling you about the people that don’t agree with them.
A LOT of us remember Mitch McConnell’s vow to make sure Mr Obama was a one-term President, no matter what. I’m proud of our country that in spite of McConnell’s best efforts, he failed.
Well said Sara…
It wasn’t a bailout, it was a loan, of which is nearly completely paid back to our government
Kelly, I retired after 30 yrs as a loan officer with a small community bank and I saw the whole thing beginning to fall apart because we were FORCED to lend to unqualified buyers due to the CRA act which was definitely the govt program.
Kat, the comment about HOPING Obama failed was about hoping his miserable policies don’t get passed. Guess what, they did get passed and that is why we haven’t recovered. Giving money to a large corporation that is able to go through bankruptcy like any other country is it only unconstitutional but economically stupid. We are in for more unconstitutional behavior from Obama (like his dream act, forced health insurance, prevention of oil drilling permits, illegal and dangerous fast and furious gun schemes, and denial of protection to our consulates and embassies worldwide). That is the reason people call Obama’s re-election tragic. It has nothing to do with Romney losing and everything to do with statists winning.
@Joel
You forgot “cap and trade” Obama’s effort to bring us down to another third world country……er, I mean solve global warming. You also forgot nuclear arms reduction treaties that see our weapons going down to nothing while Russia and China’s increase, and nuclear proliferation in Iran, and the implementation of Shirea Law in the United States. Obama already set the appointment up with the U.N. to discuss the nuclear weapons bans (March 16-18).
Joel, the bailouts had bipartisan support. I agree they were wrong, but most republicans supported them as well.
For those of you under the impression that Romney’s idea of going through the process of allowing the auto corps to go through bankruptcy don’t remember what was going on at that time. Our banking industry had nothing left to help with the post bankruptcy funding. Businesses couldn’t getting funding for inventory let alone the auto industry. The guarantee that Romney spoke of by the government was inevitable. Why go through the process of inserting the public sector when it would have only slowed down the the recovery of the industry?
I’m from KY, There is no way I could forget the vain hubris of Senator McConnell. Right now, I would vote for Yogi bear before I would vote for him! He deliberately wasted four years, that could have been spent recovering from Bush’s fiscal irresponsibility, just because he didn’t like a Black man in the White House!
Collectivism will fail this country like its failed before. Call me racist, call me anti-women….call me what you want. I will never shut up.
I’d rather call you a drama queen…
While I think the bank bailouts were “necessary”, I also think the bank CEOs should have gone to jail, or at the very least lost their jobs and been required to work for $10/hour in the mail room for the next 10 years. It’s my one not-so-liberal opinion, since I’m otherwise pretty hard-core left.
Yep, the GOP worked really hard to impede Obama and the Democrats for the past 4 years. That anything was accomplished is really quite remarkable, and worthy of priase. I’m hoping the GOP gives up the impediment policies and starts working *with* the president instead of against him. It may be I’m drinking the unicorn juice but I like being an optimist. (sometimes)
No Chana, it was the same Democrats we still have that created the economic mess in 2008, along with Barney Frank and Dodd. Bush warned them and nobody listened…especially Barney Frank and his fellow dems who allowed taxpayer funded homes for everyone who wouldn’t work.
Joe. No “taxpayers” funded my home, pal. I did not receive any bailout. Nobody showed up at my door to hand me money. The economy tanked because Bush spent the surplus and could not “do the math”. Simple. Simple.
I’m so sick of hearing that Bush caused all of this. Try looking at the fact that in January of 2007 the Democrats took control of the Senate and The House. That’s what precipitated the whole mess. Get familiar with the real history.
Nope Paul…wrong again. If you want to talk about getting familiar with “REAL” history, then you’ll know that none of this was precipitated in 2007. In 2007, the problem was already in full-swing, with the horrible aftermath to come. The “REAL” behind what precipitated this whole thing began back in 2000 when Senator Phil Gramm successfully managed to put and end tot he Glass-Steagall act, which were essentially bank regulations established after the Great Depression in 1929 to ensure that we never ended up in such a mess again. When Gramm succeeeded in killing Glass-Steagall, the regulations on banks were rolled back and they were back to doing the same n0-good stuff that landed us in the depression in the first place. What else happened in 2000…oh yeah, BUSH was elected. This all happened under his watch, and hence, he is partly to blame for allowing this. By 2007, you had a lot of people already living in houses they couldn’t afford, riding high, living the life. It was a direct result of what Gramm did in 2000, and even moreso, a direct cause of why we are all suffering today. Glass-Steagall needs to be reinstated, so we can get back to holding the banks to financial responsibility and accountability, which is what Gramm and other Republicans fought so hard against when they had Glass-Steagall killed.
That, Paul, is the “REAL” history.
This is actually a reply to “So Sick of this” Paul, below:
Quite a stunning bit of blameshifting, Paul. Are you suggesting we were in good economic shape and rearin’ to go at the end of The Bush Disaster? You, and your ‘real’ history seem to forget (purposely, it appears, for the convenience of your argument) that (A) Dems had the House and Senate for about 3 months in ’08. Hardly enough time to get new stationery, let alone reverse the effects of Bush’s unfunded wars, Medicare part D, etc. and (B) every one of the thousands of thoroughly researched and corroborated rebuttals to your ridiculously uninformed point of view.
So Paul, your premise is that this mess was precipitated since 2007?
Sounds like you may be the one in need of a history lesson….
The majority of the current deficit is made up of two things:
Bush tax cuts and the ongoing costs of Iraq and Afghanistan (which though we are winding down we will be paying for a long time to replace destroyed military machinery and supporting the soldiers maimed in theater). We can debate all day whether Iraq was necessary or a good move (it wasn’t for a great many reasons….none of which involve me being a peacenik…I am not)
As far as the housing issue that mess was begun in the 80’s oh ye of short memory. Remember all of the deregulation and weakening of regulation in the financial sector? Junk bonds and the S&L mess? Plenty of blame for the democrats and those you place blame on but had the financial sector been properly regulated in what and how much they could invest in the mortgage based securities it would have protected alot of the fallout.
And for those thinking the market can take care of itself….yeah it doesn’t and hasn’t…..if you think most companies exist all on their own with no help from the government I got nothing for you….
Carol, there was no surplus when Clinton left office. Here’s what he did to make it look that way:
Clinton ran deficits throught all 8 years of his term, and one can go to the US Treasury Department and looking through the history of the total outstanding debt through Clintons term.
Every year Clinton was in office, the total national debt continued to climb.
How Clinton managed to claim a surplus was that while the general operating budgets ran deficits but Clinton borrowed from numerous off budget funds to make the on budget fund a surplus.
For example, in 2000, Clinton claimed a $230B surplus, but Clinton borrowed
$152.3B from Social Security
$30.9B from Civil Service Retirement Fund
$18.5B from Federal Supplementary Medical insurance Trust Fund
$15.0B from Federal Hospital Insurance Trust Fund
$9.0B from the Federal Unemployment Trust Fund
$8.2B from Military Retirement Fund
$3.8B from Transportation Trust Funds
$1.8B from Employee Life Insurance & Retirement fund
$7.0B from others
Total borrowed from off budget funds $246.5B, meaning that his $230B surplus is actually a $16.5B deficit.
($246.5B borrowed – $230B claimed surplus = $16.5B actual deficit).
If there is ever a true surplus, then the national debt will go down.
There was no Clinton surplus. Just another lie told to make him look good…The federal government ran a deficit of between 17.91 and 281.26 billion every year of his Presidency
http://www.craigsteiner.us/articles/16
The economic problems started in 2008? Hmm…what rock have you been under? You are pretty uninformed to say the least
As I read these comments of blame I am immediately jolted back to my childhood. My memory is that of my mother scolding my sibling and me because she just doesn’t care who really caused the problem, but how are we are going to solve it. There were two options, 1.put on the boxing gloves and go out back and fight it out or 2.a project which placed us together to work on until complete.
MESSAGE: Wouldn’t it be nice if we could learn those lessons from childhood and WORK TOGETHER.
That’s all I’m saying.
Seriously? Bush had a SURPLUS! He chose to ruin it. Imagine Gore was president with his lock box. We’d still have money! Thank God President Obama did the best he could with an awful situation and is getting us out of this mess.
Lom, Clinton signed NAFTA on his way out opening the gateway for jobs to be exported to foreign countries at cheaper cost to corporations. Bush also had to deal with 9/11 AND Katrina, not to mention the wars- how could money not be spent? And yes, the Iraq war was misguided and a huge waste of money for what seems like a familial vendetta on Hussein, but should we have not chased after those that caused 9/11 in Afghanistan? There is no infallible President, there is only Presidents that try to do what they think is right. We can argue shortcomings of our Presidents all the way back to Wilson who decided he was going to push a big government and established the Federal Reserve.
Our freedoms have been diminished slowly but surely over the years but nobody seems to notice until you realize one day that you used to be able to choose something or do something and now it’s all regulated as if you can’t think for yourself.
What history books are you reading Paul, the same ones that say global warming is a lie?????
Joe has the information. Obama was actually in the Senate and voted to let Barney Frank and Dodd run wild over the housing markets with FANNIE and FREDDIE. Then when he gets to office, he makes it Bush’s problem, Really?
I think the blame game is over. Moving on……. I will be happy to credit anyone with success, but to be teflon and not take any responsibility for actions you did in the past, that is false information.
And, Jo, thanks for a very nicely done article.
Amen… doesnt matter what you say.. they will never read anything to see if what they are saying is true, they will continue to keep using “talking points” that they have heard from Obama because hes just soooo cool. Its quiet pathetic. You can learn a lot from people that have no clue what they are talking about though.
Jenny, take your own advise and start getting unbiased information. If you go to NRA you will only get pro gun info, if you listen to Glen Beck and Rush you will only get conspiracy theories, slanted numbers and hate, etc…look to scholarly research for the real numbers. You will see neither side is right and the truth is in the middle.
BUSH WARNED THEM? Are you delusional? Bush started two unfunded wars and told everyone not to worry and go shopping. He warned us alright “I have earned political capital and I intend to spend it.” He did, and spent us into a near depression.
Sara Bush and his administration did warn, many times, and it was blocked by democrats every time – it is all on c-span … we are all free to vote for who we want to vote for but when people are doing it without being educated on what is really happening and just listening blindly to what they are being told … that is how we lose control of this wonderful country and the next thing we know we aren’t quite as free anymore … all the warnings are on video … http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPSDnGMzIdo
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3252
Sorry to burst your bubble.
Bush was the one that was warned. When his economic advisers tried to tell him he was going down the wrong path he told them he never wanted to ever hear he was wrong again. Sorry.
Please enlighten me what exactly they did in 2008 because I clearly remember knocking on doors of seniors in forgotten neighborhoods who were preyed on to change their fixed rates into ARMs in 2007. The housing crisis has been an issue prior to 2007 as well so I don’t think this was a “Democrat” issue more than a GREED and and a predatory issue.
Ashanti you just hit the nail on the head! Greed is what started this and the greed of the banks, corporations and others that continue to bring us down.
Joe….You don’t know your history…….You have been listening to Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh too long. The economic mess was created by President Reagan when he opened our government to Corporations. We are heading towards a Fascist State because of him. Go back in history (Italy-WWII). Corporations ran their government and they failed. The Republicans are trying to do the same here by controlling the Legislative, Executive and Judicial branches of our government. They already have the Judicial (all the corrupt judges) the Legislative (all the lazy no-show representatives and NOW they wnat the White House. Imagine what kind of a MONOPOLY we would have!?!?!?!?! I sure as hell would not want to land on Boardwalk with them in FULL control.!!!!!
Gaucho, you are a complete moron. Reagan headed us towards Fascism? Maybe if you could stop being a bigot and open your mind to possibilities other than what the left has drilled into your brain, you might have a thought worthy of someone reading.
Actually, if you all want to get technical about it… Our debt started with James Monroe (Our 5th president) Despite the warnings from Thomas Jefferson of starting to spend what we don’t have, leading us towards a national debt. Thomas Jefferson had it right back then, but Monroe was the one who started digging our whole!
Joel M- I’m a bigot? Look in the mirror.
I will go back to my previous statement and you don’t have to answer. Do you listen to Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and Fox channels? You have been “Brain-Washed”. Hitler did the same to his society before WWII. As an example watch the History Channel when Hitler’s youth were marching in the streets dressed in uniform. Hitler needed to have a cause so he picked on groups of people to blame his economy. He picked on the Jews, invalids, gay, etc. Very easy to convince his public. Likewise the Republicans (PAID and led by the 1%’s) have chosen to pick on Obama, Democrats, etc. I bet that you really believed that Obama was not born in the US. I bet you really demanded to see his birth certificate. I bet that when the statement of making Obama a “one term president” came out you really felt “your fury”. You are blind! Just like the German people were for a while. Its people like you that the Republicans are depending on to bring confusion a disarray to this economy.
Ok, so you are ALL mostly wrong.
The makings of the financial mess are tied to the early 1990’s when both the Dems and Reps moved to amend and finally repeal sections 20 and 32 of the Glass-Steagall Act (1933 Banking Act). This allowed the cross over between commercial banks and investment banks which ultimately resulted in the financial crisis. Banks holding mortgages began to divide the mortgages up much like stocks and package them in portfolios much like the stock portfolios you probably hold as part of your retirement investments. The reason for the banks to do this is simple (and the same reason you do it). It mitigated their risk. If one mortgage defaulted they didn’t hold the entire mortgage, only a piece of it. And they had other mortgages packed with it that didn’t default, so they still came out ahead. This make the banks more likely to lend money.
This was combined with the dramatic rise in housing values. The banks realized the properties were worth way more than the value of the mortgage. So they started trading these packages of mortgages as if they were a commodity, relying on the fact that the property values would keep increasing, and ultimately further driving up the values and resulting in a bubble that would burst. Because that is what happens in a “free market.” Bubbles form and they burst.
The ramifications of this are what we are still dealing with. Because when the housing bubble burst, it had a horrible side effect. Our entire financial system is founded on one tiny thing: Banks lend money to each other and businesses. ALL THE TIME. All day every day. Small (by scale) short term loans. This rate they lend to each other at is what the term “prime interest rate refers to. Without this there is no economy. PERIOD. The housing bubble’s burst was so dramatic it left these banks in a conundrum: they had no idea how much their assets (the mortgages) were worth. They could not lend money to each other because they had no idea how much money they had. The original bank bailouts were to give them enough known assets to keep lending until they could sort out the mess. These bailouts were repaid (all of them within the first year).
So, in conclusion the bailouts were necessary. They were necessary because of deregulation. One thing I think people of both sides forget is that the economic discussion is not just either/or. If it’s not completely free market capitalism, it doesn’t automatically mean it’s socialism. Socialism is when the government OWNS the means of production. There is a difference between setting rules to curtail some of the excessive peaks and droughts of capitalism and owning it. Regulated capitalism is responsible for the highest, longest lasting, and most widely shared periods of economic growth ever witnessed.
Hi.
I thought I’d reply because you’re one of the few people with some sense of intellectual honesty. We can talk about emotions and overreactions of the citizens of the U.S. due to the election, but the real underlying problem here is the blatant lack of respect for intellectual honesty.
We’ve reached an age of information overflow where everyone is a self-proclaimed subject matter expect of every thing they read. “Globalization of intellect” is the term I have used to describe it.
So thanks for being honest. Everybody digs for truth, but the problem is people stop digging when they find the one they want.
Thank you for the most cogent and civilized comment I’ve read thus far!
And thank you particularly for this bit of much-needed commonsense: “If it’s not completely free market capitalism, it doesn’t automatically mean it’s socialism. Socialism is when the government OWNS the means of production. There is a difference between setting rules to curtail some of the excessive peaks and droughts of capitalism and owning it. Regulated capitalism is responsible for the highest, longest lasting, and most widely shared periods of economic growth ever witnessed.”
I’m sooooo tired of the words “socialism” and “socialist” being tossed around 9 times out of 10 by people who don’t have a CLUE what they mean. Likewise, “capitalism” isn’t some kind of pristine, perfect gift from the gods. Left completely unchecked, capitalism would carry us right back to where we were at the end of the 19th century: child labor; dangerous working conditions; subsistence pay; and no protection from exploitation by employers, banks, and other power-brokers.
As in most things in life, MODERATION is the win-win formula.
Agreed. Sub-prime lenders handed out loans to everyone who asked. No federal regulations stopped them from giving loans to people who really couldn’t afford it. I know as I saw it happen. I worked in the housing industry whenthe bottom dropped out. They handed out ridiculous loans with huge balloon paymentsRMS and through voodoo math convinced people with 500 credit scores they could afford a 100% mtg.
Great comment, Lethia. You missed just one piece of this, and that is that companies like AIG starting selling ‘insurance’ on these mortgage bundles. That in itself was not bad, but then they started betting on both sides. They would ‘rate’ a package as being very good, even though it may have very few really good mortgages in it, and lots of sub-prime. They’d then sell these bundles to wall street, all the while insuring themselves against them if they failed to perform. This led to them -wanting- them to fail, because then they made double.
See a movie called ‘The Inside Job’. It explains both Lethia’s comment and my own above much better. People can blame Bush all they want, but how many of those people realize that the Bankers from Goldman Sachs, etc, that were in Bush’s cabinet…are also in Obama’s? This isn’t Reps against Dems, folks. We have a problem much bigger than that, and it all goes back to the folks who have the true money (power) in this country. big banks.
Finally, someone who has a clear vision of histrory and truth. Unregulated capitalism means that all social programs are gone-and, if we are truly one nation under God, we have to have some measure of social responsibility. Refer to the 1870-1910 period, with the conflict between labor and capital. Without a social concious, Owners would work their laborers to death. And this country firmly decided not to accept slavery. All Americans deserve the ability to make a decent wage and support and educate their children. Any politician who brags about ignoring 47% of the population is shooting himself in the foot.
Well said. Most of this stuff doesn’t lend itself to sound bites, and any politician or pundit that tries to sell you one is being dishonest. THIS is the real explanation. There is enough blame to spread around here. Bipartisan failure.
Thank goodness someone else with a brain is here! Thank you for your non-partisan explanation of our “reality.” Maybe it will spur LOGICAL conversation.
Thank you Lethia
Nice post Lethia! You obviously know what you are talking about and that is refreshing. Thanks for doing your part to try and enlighten the masses! 😀
Wow, someone else that is sane in all of this! I have tried to explain this to my father and he just keeps yelling that people got themselves into it and it’s their fault. See my comment above about what I have been seeing on the ground. Good job! Also the comment under you about AIG and Goldman Saks…it’s a key part many forget or never understood. Regulation is a good thing and it doesn’t make us Socialist or Communist, and neither does wanted to care for people that can’t care for themselves. Don’t get me started on the plight of our mentally ill and how they got the shaft! Caring for our people is just showing our humanity.
Nothing new here Lethia, but your ability to summarize a complicated issue with such a marvelous economy of words is brilliant!
Lethia Williams, You are so right in your previous statement. The problem is that “money buys money = power” and those who have it don’t want to budge. They have been doing everything in their “power = $$$” to control the economy which brings us to ALL THE DISCUSSIONS that are taking place in this blog.
Credit default swaps not consumers crashed the housing market
Please take the time to review the facts….we are in this finacial mess because President G.W. Bush waged two unpaid for wars while reducing the nation’s income by reducing taxes for eveyone.
You are entitled to your opinions, but you are not allowed to create your own facts.
@Joe,
Remember how they called Bush a racist because the head of Fannie Mae happened to be Black and the Bush administration was stating that Fannie was out of control.
“Bush Warned them”….. HUH???? What did he say “the chickens I have created have come home to roost. My finacial irresponsibilty will continue to destroy this country. Plus the Neo-Cons in the Republican ran Congress will do everything they can do to stop any and all Obama’s Policies created for the benefit of the WHOLE country from going through”…
Come on after 8 years of his clownness in chief could anything he said be taken seriously.
“Clowness in Chief” – hee hee….. It was pretty embarrasing he would not correct his “Nu-CUE-Lar” because that would be admitting he had pronounced it wrong. What a dry drunk! Anything is preferable than honesty with yourself when you are in the state W was in….
hear hear. well said. too many anemic memories!
Well said. Way too many people seem to forget where we were 4 years and the 20 years of policies that led us there.
What a pantload. That statement about making Obama a one-term president wasn’t made until 2010, almost two years into his term. This “day one” crap is an outright lie.
As for it being a tragic day, just watch what happens when Obama gives amnesty to 12 million new Dem voters. This country just acquired a one-party government, so all those checks and balances invented by the founding fathers just became null and void. I’m sure the Dems will rejoice at this, but the rest of us, who believe in the Constitution, do indeed see it as tragic.
HUH? A one party government? The balance of power was completely unchanged in this election. The checks and balances created by our Constitution are unchanged by this election.
This kind of ignorance doesn’t lend much credibility…
Checks and Balances has to do with branches of government not political parties.- Legislative ( House and Senate ), Executive ( President), and Judicial ( Supreme Court). Please go back and learn your US government lessons again.
Umm, regardless of the exact date, repugs have blocked most anything Obama has proposed. They are petulant, recalcitrant children who don’t care about the good of the people or the state of the nation. Let’s hope they see the light and that it has not worked and that they learn to cooperate. Perhaps they need to go watch some preschoolers learn to share and how to work together.
http://www.tnr.com/blog/jonathan-cohn/96591/mcconnell-villain-who-me#
How can you say the country “just acquired a one-party government”? The Republicans still have a majority in the House, the Democrats have a small majority in the Senate, and there were even a few independents elected. How is that any different than under previous presidents, Democrat or Republican?
If this country just did become a one-party government (which judging by state and local governments all around the country that are still in GOP control; see: my home state of Nebraska), maybe it’s because the GOP has crappy/non-existent ideas, have contributed little of value to national politics, and tried to push an extremely out of the mainstream social agenda and they reaped the electoral fruits thereof. They have been slowly digging their own grave since their Faustian bargain with the religious right and the former Confederacy in the 60s.
It will never be a one party country. If the Republicans can craft a platform that appeals to more than just white upper class males and religious fanatics, then they can win many hearts and minds. Keep “tragic” in perspective. Finally, Bush cut taxes and didn’t cut spending, started the orgy of borrowing from China and 1 totally unnecessary war that cost trillions. Obama added trillions more in stimulus. Fair to say that both played a hand. Fair to say that both could have been avoided.
Really what war was it that was unnecessary? Afganistan? When 9-11 happened there wasn’t one red blooded american that didn’t want revenge.
Have you read the 2012 Republican platform?
Last time I checked, the House was firmly Republican-majority. Yup, still is.
Wrong…..
In 2008 through 2010 the House and the Senate were controlled by Democrats.
Wrong. The democrats had a filibuster proof senate for 6 months. Hence the stimulus…proven to have worked, and Obamacare.(thanks for naming it that by the way). Cloture was invoked 63 times in 2009 and 2010, how ya like them apples?
A one-party government? In what sense on earth do we have a one-party government? Are you aware of the outcomes in the House and Senate?! And are you aware how effectively the Republicans in Washington have managed to stop Obama from doing almost anything these past 4 years? This is no dictatorship and indeed, what you write here is just the kind of extremist rhetoric that Jo’s article is all about. In most countries of the world Obama would be considered a right-wing politician. He is no communist dictator. Keep things in perspective, dude!
Emily, you obviously are one of those people that don’t do your homework before you open your mouth. When Obama ran for his first term and told the world he was a “Christian” he lied, when he said he wanted to move America “forward” it was a rouse to fool all the young voters into believing he actually wanted what was best for America and not his own agenda. You clearly are blinded by his smooth talk and whatever it is that people find attractive about him being in the white house. I do not affiliate myself with either party because both of them are to blame for our current situation. However, if you really want to know the truth about Obama, you should do some research. He was groomed from birth to do what he is in the White House to do. He is a Muslim, raised to be a Dictator, following orders from people behind the scenes, people like George Soros, and Valerie Jarrett. They are all truly evil people looking to turn America into a facist socialist country. It has been in the works since Kennedy and 50% of the nation just voted yes for it. If you really think that having Republicans in Washington matters at all look at Obama’s record for Executive Orders. He has made over 900 in the past 3 1/2 years. The most any other president in an 8 year term has made was George W Bush and his was only 65. Read your constitution while it still exists, the President can override congress by filing an Executive Order (Prime example: Obamacare). He will override the voting process, call to order the military and wage war on the American people. He is already starting with the gun laws he’s beginning to enforce. YOU need to put things into perspective DUDE…..you don’t know your facts.
During the first two years of his presidency, Obama had a Democrat controlled House and a filibuster proof Senate. How do you think Obamacare and Son of Stimulus was passed? The House passed 30 jobs bills from 2010 to 2012. All died in the Senate, led by Harry Reid (D). Senator Reid failed to even consider bringing any of those bills to the Senate floor for a vote. And the Senate has yet to pass a budget going on 4 years now. There is plenty of blame to go around, and it knows no political party.
@Emily
Did you read how Harry Reid is moving to change the laws of the Senate to dissolve the 60 vote filibuster rule so they can pass whatever they want along party lines with 51 votes. Talk about disbanding the “balance of power” our forefathers so soundly put in place.
@ Stephanie: You are truly delusional. I don’t ordinarily respond to such garbage, but when someone like you presents as fact accusations with absolutely no concrete evidence my blood starts to boil. There is nothing wrong with disliking President Obama, or even hating him. But at least be honest about your reasons.
@Stephanie
President Obama is NOT a Muslim. Practicing Muslims have to pray 5 times per day at specific times. While Obama was watching the election results on Tuesday, no one noticed him pull out a prayer rug and face Mecca. No one noticed this at the White House Easter-egg roll, either, and both of these events were very public and coincided with prayer times. No one noticed because it never happened, because he’s not a Muslim. Also, fascism and socialism are very nearly opposites on the political spectrum so a “fascist socialist country” is an oxymoron in and of itself and we are definitely not headed for either.
@ Stephanie:
Please take some time to do your homework. The myth that President Obama signed 923 Executive Orders is one of the biggest hoaxes around. One of the websites you missed in your “research” is Snopes.com. President Obama has issued, to date, 138 Executive Orders. President Bush did not issue 65 or 62. He issued 291, less than President Clinton’s 364. These numbers are documented by the American Presidency Project. This information was remarkably easy to find.
wow Stephanie…you really need to stop getting your news from Rush and Beck. By the way, a fascist government doesn’t have elections…they have the guys called Dictators. We are also not a Socialist or Communist government…check your definitions. We just had an election and even though people on BOTH sides tried to repress that I think most people that wanted to voted. That would be a Democracy and we have checks and balances. Also, those who think because one side has a majority that means they can pass anything than you must not be aware that it has to be more than a 51 percent majority
Ok a couple of things.
1) you are correct the Mitch McConnell did not make the “one term President comment until 2010. That is only because the republicans were effectively out of power until the 2010 elections. So as soon as the got dealt back into the game, House leadership made it known that they were not going to work with the President. They chose party over country.
2) I doubt that the President will be offering amnesty to 12 million Latinos ( I am assuming that is whom you are referring to) , our immigration problems would not be solved by a simple blanket solution, but even if he does , Republicans have themselves to blame for effectively creating a “one party” system. The Republicans put forth policy in such a tone deaf manner, that it created an environment were it appeared that the right just didn’t not like ” brown people” . Even without a change in our immigration policy 50,000 Latinos turn 18 every month, and the are concentrated in places like Florida, Arizona, and Texas. It is a demographic nightmare for the right, and they have no one but themselves to blame.
3) If the Republicans become a Minor/ regional party it is not the end of our nation. Political parties have risen and fallen throughout our nations history,and if Republicans continue to listen to the most vitriolic of voices from the far right maybe the Ash heap is where they belong, so there is room fro a strong center right conservative party again in America.
In the end that choice is going to be made on the right. So quit the histrionics and engage your leadership.
“So quit the histrionics and engage your leadership.” One of the best, to the point, statements I think I’ve read on any blog, forum, +++ Sums up so much.
One of the best responses I have read thus far. Just too bad it won’t be read or understood by those who need to see it the most!!!Great job.
“Even without a change in our immigration policy 50,000 Latinos turn 18 every month, and the are concentrated in places like Florida, Arizona, and Texas. It is a demographic nightmare for the right, and they have no one but themselves to blame.” Enuff said.
Conservatives need to look at the numbers. If the message does not include a majority of the people, you cannot win. There is no secret formula…
If you are under 45 u better hope he let’s 12 million and then some in if you want Social Security and Medicare…
Wow, Cowcharge really has a republican bur up his backside. You can join your fellow white racists and move to Australia, but keep in mind that they have a gay prime minister, free healthcare and Religion doesn’t run politics there. HA! book a flight moron…
David, Australia’s Prime Minister is a woman who is living with her male partner. She is an atheist. You are right about universal healthcare and religion not running politics.
I am very excited to see that someone realizes what we are headed toward Cowcharge. Thanks, it makes me feel so not alone! Let’s hope 4 years isn’t long enough to get this done!
Ohhh you mean two years into his term…. when republicans took over congress? ? That would make sense that THEY are the ones who swore to ensure Obama fails! ! Don’t forget that the nothingness Obama Has done is purely because of congress’ refusal to approve anything he has proposed. Including the end of the “temporary” tax cuts that bush put into place. If all the money hoarders in the country would pay fair taxes instead of expecting the poor to pick up their slack our DEBT would be greatly reduced. Its simple math! !!! Btw lets all remember what TEMPORARY means when the rich republicans think they are entitled to pay less taxes.
Actually his first two years, before the Tea Party took hold, he got a lot done that he had said he would. Then it came to a screeching halt. It’s only going to get worse in two years if the Republicans are able to add more of them rather than people who feel the need to say more than “it’s our way or the highway”
“so all those checks and balances invented by the founding fathers just became null and void. I’m sure the Dems will rejoice at this, but the rest of us, who believe in the Constitution”
Such as…separation of Church and State so that Religious views would not be involved in the making of Law? Yes….we see how well that has played out for a specific party who loves to push their Religion into what should and should not be a Law.
You (and so many other liberals) obviously have no comprehension of the Establishment Clause. There is no separation of church and state as you have defined it. Religious views have ALWAYS been at the core both the Constitution and the vast majority of our laws. Whether you believe that the Founding Fathers were Christians or Deists, NO sane person questions that most of our constitutional and legal system is founded on Judeo-Christian principles. To do so is the height of illiteracy. The establishment clause prevents government meddling in religion, not the other way around. It keeps the government from creating one religion to rule them all (thereby ‘establishing’ a religion that would ‘meddle’ in everyone else’s religions… see the logic?), but by no means precludes people advocating for religiously based moral legislation. Your moronic assertion would lead to the scrapping of the entirety of our constitutional and legal system. PLEASE educate yourself before your hurt someone.
In Oct 2010 McConnell was, unfortunately for the country, describing the Republican mission since BEFORE DAY ONE.
“…the Republican plot to obstruct President Obama before he even took office, including secret meetings led by House GOP whip Eric Cantor (in December 2008) and Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell (in early January 2009) in which they laid out their daring (though cynical and political) no-honeymoon strategy of all-out resistance to a popular President-elect during an economic emergency. “If he was for it,” former Ohio Senator George Voinovich explained, “we had to be against it.” ”
Read more: http://swampland.time.com/2012/08/23/the-party-of-no-new-details-on-the-gop-plot-to-obstruct-obama/#ixzz2BfvrEBRT
COWCHARGE
You sound just as dumb as Joe….”The statement about making Obama a one-term president” started the day he became president. Just like the questioning as to weather he was a legitimate American Born person. You have to be STUPID to think that one could become president if he/she was NOT born in the US. I came to the US from Argentina when I was 10 y/o and I already knew that I would not be able to become a US president. Did you know that when you were 10 y/o.
Nope sorry, but fox news was forecasting the end of the world within days of the president being sworn in. And saying that your main goal is to make Obama a one term president at all, at any time, is ridiculous. With so many real problems to face, to make that a goal is completely inappropriate.
Exactly. And don’t think, btw, that I didn’t see many, many posts declaring how “TRAGIC” it would be if Romney was elected. …It’s just as important to be a gracious winner, something I’ve yet to see so far, save for very few friends. I wonder, how gracious would they be if the outcome were different?.
I don’t know about gracious. There’d be riots in the street. Funny how I didn’t see one Republican riot!!
@ Jeff, Actually there was at the University of Mississippi. Aslo theKKK vowed a race war on 60 minutes a couple weeks ago.
Amazing how the take responsibility party will say anything to not take responsibility. The first one-term statement happened early in Obama’s term. I wrote objecting and lamenting that such useless vitriol was what caused me to defect from the Republican party in the first place. Obviously, I won’t be coming back soon since every last person seems intent on blaming instead of being helpful, being blind to Bush’s faults instead of actually learning from them.
I have to add that “checks and balances” doesn’t refer to political parties but the three branches of government. There’s nothing about political parties in the Constitution. In fact, George Washington warned against them and didn’t belong to one. And there have been plenty of parties that have come and gone during the history of this country (Whigs, Federalists, ect), so there’s nothing about being a Democrat or Republican in the Constitution.
A little historical fact check here. The ‘checks & balances’ so well designed by the founding fathers was *not* checks & balances between *two political parties*, but rather an intricate interweaving and distribution of power between **the three branches of government** – executive, legislative, & judicial. That of course did not change last Tuesday.
I am with you Chana. Your statement is soooo true….
Amen Chana, that’s exactly what has occurred.
I’m getting a little tired of people pontificating on the auto bailout and saying things like, “they should have let them go belly up!” and that it was unfair to the other American auto manufacturers. I’ve got a fact for you that is not going to jive with your narrative. Here is a clip of Ford CEO, Mulally on Fox News. If you think the Auto bailout was a bad thing or didn’t really matter, you should listen carefully to this clip. It gets relative at about 58 seconds in. I hope you listen to someone that knows better than you or I.
http://gas2.org/2012/09/21/video-fox-news-gets-a-lesson-on-civility-economics-from-ford-ceo/
I would love for you to tell me which bills Obama came up with that congress blocked from passing that had helped Veterans? Would it be the one that would cut their coast of living allowance? Or was it the bill in which he would not allow retired Veterans to get a yearly raise to keep up with inflation? Could it possibly be the bill that turns military retirements into a 401K that the soldier cannot draw until the age of 65 because it is unfair that we have a retirement that pays us the day we retire? Now here is a question for you, Service Members who sacrifice their freedoms to serve and protect the people of the United States and their allies against all enemies foreign and domestic, should have the same retirement that some who has sacrificed nothing for the better good of man kind? Oh and this bill to change the military retirement is to pay off the 15 trillion dollar deficit by save the tax payers 500 billion dollars over the next 10 years geez saving that much in 10 years will never pay off the deficit and wont even keep up with the interest and inflation of the deficit. Also in this bill they are cutting the service members education benefits while they are currently serving and cutting the education benefits for the service member’s spouse education benefits. Now tell me how it is fair that us service members must suffer the burden of yet another one of Americas problems while the people we are here to protect are unwilling to pay their fair of taxes and to cut out all useless programs that only promote the lazy to continue being lazy and to not be productive members of society. So his vision is to take from the .1% of the population let the other 99.9% continue to live without feeling any of the consequences of all this care free spending, how do you find this fair for those who are sworn to protect you? And if you think that soldiers do not protect you then fire all of us and take all the defense budget to PBS, Welfare, Obamacare, and all the green peace crap people want and you will see within hours we would be invaded by a foreign nation and all of our allies would not be there to protect us because there is not other military on the planet that the rest of the world fears than the U.S. Military. So please enlighten me on how congress is ensuring Obama is going to fail? Is it because they are keeping the benefits for the service member so they will continue to serve or to continue funding DOD projects to stay one step a head of our enemies? Please before commenting step back do some research and comment with some sort of intelligence and step out of your invisible protective bubble that keeps you from seeing the world for what it truly is, a harsh cruel place that is full of turmoil, violence, and hate. it doesn’t matter who the president is as long as they start to take from the majority and not the minority that only 1% over the entire population is part of. We have sacrificed enough for this country, when will it stop and the lazy will start to care for themselves?
First, this article is terrific!!
Next, I agree with what you say, Chana, but will add one bit. Let’s not hope, but demand better days. If you live in an area where these obstructionist congress people represent, let them know full well enough is enough! Let them know that any more of such tactics will lead to their removal from office with their replacement being someone capable of putting ‘us’ first, someone who learned in elementary school how to play nicely with others..
Very well spoken, It is so easy to throw the blame on one person, but we all have to either find work, or create a business for ourselves, we have the opportunity to do that in this country, even with this economy you can still create something out of nothing, I have and I know many people that are doing just that Yes in this economy! Stop complaining people and help yourselves and help others by giving someone a job in what you create even if it’s small, things will get better, History is our best proof, this great country has been and has seen worst and we overcame those adversities, Change your way of thinking and you will change your life!
Yes, kept hoping the republicans would realize the country would suffer greatly if they wouldn’t work with dems to boost the economy. They would rather push the country to the brink of collapse , so that they might win the next election. Honestly, how do they sleep at night?
No excuses! It is a sad and tragic day! A continuance of no repair and failure was renewed!
Sure we love America and appreciate her compared to other countries. That is why it is sad and tragic. There are people living in oblivion, just believing in all the disguised goodness while really, they are in quick sand. We will see. We will see.
Chana, couldn’t have put it better myself!!
I felt we were at a “fiscal cliff” in 2008 when neighbors all around me were losing their homes due to the mortgage debacle. Then, there were jobs that were not there because they went overseas. Also, I was seeing lines of homeless people waiting for food, children sleeping in cars with their parents. My son lost his job because it was being done, cheaper, overseas.
Then we watched the Republicans fight any activity by the government that would alleviate the distress that had been caused by corporate greed. The elections shows that the people are learning to fight back, together. We’ll fight another 4 years.
So the Repubs stopped the masses from receiving assistance? More people are receiving food stamps than ever in the history of our country. More people are receiving and continue to receive unemployment benefits than any other time as well. In the coming months, when we go over the cliff, I hope and pray that your head finally comes out of your ass.
the middle class and wealthy benefit much more from “government assistance” than the poor…maybe you should look around for our head because it’s probably somewhere in your ass.
http://olc.edu/~jolson/socialwork/OnlineLibrary/Abramovitz%20(2001)%20Everyone%20is%20still%20on%20welfare%20-%20the%20role%20of%20redistribution%20in%20social%20policy.pdf
The Republicans sure are trying to stop the masses from receiving assistance and Romney said he would cut FEMA completely. How do you think the people of NY and NJ feel about him? Oh yeah, they voted against him in large numbers. Those same people receiving all those benefits are in the “red” states in overwhelming numbers compared to the rest of the country “blue” states. And the Republicans want to cut all those benefits and benefits for Veterans that deserve it. How ironic is that. Check the New York Times for the map if you don’t believe me.
Wish people would stop lumping all New Yorkers together. Yes downstate the votes were nearly 2 to 1 for Obama. But upstate the statistics were reversed with nearly 2 to 1 for Romney. Because the population density is much higher in downstate, their votes trump upstate votes. This has been an ongoing issue.
1)First of all, Romney never said he was going to cut FEMA. He said he wanted to give more responsibility to the individual state so that things could be managed better. 2) NY and NJ are historically democratic states, so your point in moot. Of course they voted Dem, they almost always do!! 3) Last time I checked, which was this morning, 49% if the population is receiving some sort of govt assistance. And you are trying to tell me this hasn’t become a “gimme” nation over the last 4 years? Please. This president is desperately trying to follow pin te footsteps of his non-existent daddy. Big govt, no middle class.
for you people below that don’t know anything about FEMA, States do already have all the control. FEMA backs up and provides resources and support for State Gov’s to recover from large scale disasters that States themselves cannot handle. So Ronmey’s statement shows just how much he knows about how FEMA already and has been operating. As do the rest of you…
It would cost far more per state to fund 50 separate FEMA Depts with all the levels of admin, response and equipment required to do the job. So if you want the States budgets to be higher, and for the ability of FEMA to be reduced, then yes, follow that bad policy idea.
I’m not sure what you think that Cliff is composed of, but it is quite literally being created by the republicans. Otherwise, we’d pass a debt package as every congress has done since the 60’s.
As for Food stamps and other forms of temporary relief…. guess where those came from? And guess where those people would be without it….. begging at your door.
I’m so ready for all these conservatives who are willing to fix everything without government assistance, to get off their asses and do it. Because in the history of the country they’ve never gotten us even close. You might take care of your grandma, but what about the grandma in Detroit with no surviving family? What about the kids whose parents are rotting in jail for drug possession? When are you going to start helping someone other than the neighbor and your family? You keep arguing to take care of it, and yet it doesnt’ seem to actually happen enough? Thats where the rest of us come in, cleaning up all the gaps and problems you create with your misanthropic nonsense.
In all actuality, more people are on public assistance due to George W. Bush. Fact is, welfare usage rose in 7 out of 8 years during Bush’s presidency. The country was reeling from his failed economic policies, and he knew it. He then took steps to relax the requirements to quality families for public assistance, and thus created a situation where MANY more families were able to take advantage of it, which he openly requested that they do. He made sure that he made statements to let people know that this public assistance was available, and that they should take advantage of it.
Once Obama took office, the numbers simply continued to climb, due tot he steps Bush took to loosen those qualification requirements. If you want to blame Obama for anything, blame him for keeping the Bush policies intact, but not for causing the issue, as so many (like Newt and his crew) would have you believe when they call Obama the “Food Stamp President”. That is actually no doing of Obama’s.
And those, as they say, are the facts. Don’t believe me, look up “Obama Food Stamp President” on Snopes.com. They are unbiased and simply seek the facts on everything. They have no political agenda or baises.
The only trouble with Obama winning is that we will hear it’s Bushes fault for the next 4 years. It is time Obama grows up , gets rid of his ego ,and takes RESPONSIBILITY for his actions.
Jerry, “Snopes.com. They are unbiased and simply seek the facts on everything. They have no political agenda or baises.”
Jerry, sorry they do not always give the facts. They are just like the rest of the media. There are facts from government websites that can give you facts, but to claim snopes is unbiased is folly. That’s about like quoting wikipedia!
It seems to me that this is one of the comments that should have been deleted as disrespectful. In any case, if we have more people receiving assistance it is because we have more people needing assistance because of the bad economy. What are those people supposed to do when they lost their jobs because their companies went bankrupt? You seem to be one of the people who assumes that the “masses” are unemployed because they want to be. That may be true of some, but most of the people receiving benefits are people who, through no fault of their own, lost their jobs and now need help. What is their alternative?
Scabbeus….it is only because OUR government has a food stamp program that we do not see our neighbors in soup lines, or “stale bread” lines. The unemployment benefits are also a stop-gap measure, otherwise more people would be living in the streets. Maybe if people could grasp the concept of “unified governing”…and work together for the good of the masses. Then we will see this country rise back up and regain her status as the leader of the free world. Anything less, and we may face a Depression of major proportions.
Wow Scabbeus! The United States of America is going over the proverbial cliff? When is this happening? How is this happening? I hope and pray that someone will grab you by the ankles and pull your head out off your ass!
You people who keep spewing your rhetoric, listen up! Do any of you really know what the President of the United States actual can and cannot do? Have any of you EVER taken a look outside of your little bubbles and educated yourselves on how a democracy, YOUR democracy, actually works?
I am completely disgusted with all of the mudslinging, finger pointing imbeciles who believe they know what they are talking about when clearly, they don’t.
I am a Canadian who knows much more about your political system than you do! How is that possible? It is possible because what happens in the U.S. directly and indirectly affects us here in Canada. So for in our best interests, we watch and study what is going on down there so when it comes time for us to elect a party to run our country, we can either try to elect someone who will compliment and back the new President so that we can work together to make things better for EVERYONE or we can try to elect someone that will help to keep our best interests in line.
Just because you THINK you know something, doesn’t mean that you actually do! It is the year 2012 for goodness sake! If y’all can type your ignorant comments on FB you sure as hell can surf the web and “edumacate” yourselves in your own political policies and the inner workings of your government. Maybe you should ask ABC to re-run the School House Rock series for those of you who truly need to learn how your system works.
I am a proud Canadian who is proud to be a neighbour of the United States of America! Oh and by the way, just a little FYI, we do MORE for your country than your country does for us. So please, if you’re going to respond with some meek response like “of course you would be proud to be the benefiting neighbour of a super power” don’t. You’ll just end up making yourself look more ridiculous than you already do.
Now move along and remember that it is not 1 man who will be mankinds downfall, but all of you who keep your head in the sand and those of you who suffer from “chicken little syndrome”…..the sky is not falling and we can put Humpty Dumpty together again. Always have, always will.
It is sad someone from a different country has to even try to get Americans to educate themselves on their own government. The bottom line is this. The Parties of our govt. have to work together to do what is best for the country, or it won’t matter who is right or wrong, we will ALL pay the consequences for their inaction.
Astonished,
I have to completely agree with you! I have see so good comment and some very ignorant comments here. As an American it makes me sad that so many people never looked beyond the platform they support. Sure Obama wasn’t the greatest president and the next four years may be rough, but they would have been rough with Romney too. The blame game has to stop though, each president has inherited the good and bad decisions of the previous president. Obama will be hit with some of his choices in the next four year from his first term, lets see how he handles them!
Likewise….idiot
Scabbeus, very well said!
Audrey Patton you are so miss informed. My self, a 25 year old entrepreneur have found my self jobless among 53% of college grads right now. I opened up a coffee shop that covered my schooling and hoped to pursue my graduate degree when finishing up, but there are no jobs. I work part time at 24hr fitness and I cant tell you the ammount of people buying 60$ sessions that are on food stamps and unemployement (even worse now, the Obama phone). So when many of feel like it has been a tragic day, it has. The people working for their money are getting screwed and we are clearly supporting the “lazy class”.
There are no Obama phones. http://www.fcc.gov/guides/lifeline-and-link-affordable-telephone-service-income-eligible-consumers – service has been around since 1984 in one form or another.
Unemployment has always been higher among recent college graduates, but the chances are getting better and they are still much better than those who do not have a degree.
There is no lazy class, that is a slur to get you to hate your fellow Americans. Sure, there are always going to be those that game the system in ways it was not intended but to say there is a whole swath of people that do it is not just overgeneralizing but it is lazy thinking.
I think by Obama phone, Jim meant the free cell phones you can get when you are on foodstamps.
I agree with the comment that “lazy class” is a slur. Its an easy way to blame people you’ve never met or interacted with for the problems we all face together. “Those people” are always to blame. It was once the Irish immigrants, the german immigrants, blacks, Hispanics… We all do this together. And yes there are a lot of people out there who aren’t looking for jobs and rely on welfare of some kind. But I guarantee if work was available the vast majority of people will take it. But if you’ve ever known any people in this “lazy class” (which you haven’t otherwise you wouldn’t be labeling them as “other” from yourself) you would understand the extremely difficult hurdles of finding and securing long term employment. You’d also understand the insecurity and lack of living compensation at many jobs. Let us not forget that the majority of Walmart workers ALSO accept government assistance. These people clearly aren’t “lazy class.” They are victims of an economic incentive to make workers part time and cut compensation.
Terence how can you say there is no “Lazy Class”? What about all the people that receive government assistant and don’t even try to find a job or they will not work at a fast food job. Just because they fell they should be paid more. Some of them keep getting benefits by staying enrolled in “online” school . For which they receive Pel grants so they can pay there bills. I don’t have a problem with people getting help but I do think that people need to help them selves at the same time. I am tried of going to work and paying my taxes so other worthless people can stay home and watch T.V. all day.
I do apologize about over generalizing, because i realize not everyone on aid is lazy. I get really angry when I spend hours working my job, trying to run my coffee shop, make responsible decisions (like pay off student loans, not eat out, live very simple) when my clients are eating out, buying 60$ training sessions, and are getting free cell phones, driving newer cars. And the comment about the cell phones is false. They are getting cell phones for free, I had a client show me her’s and bragged about not paying for it.
The “lazy class”? Would that be all those people in West Virginia, Kentucky, Texas and other “red” states that receive the most assistance but are Republican bases. Those states for your information receive the most welfare compared to the rest of the country. It’s overwhelmingly blatant and you think it’s poor blacks in the innner city. Wrong, it’s poor whites living in rural areas and working class people of all races who’s jobs were sent overseas by venture capitalists like Romney. Get your facts straight before you post things and take the emotional uniformed ideas out of the equation. Links below. Compare them and see what the facts aka numbers say. men and women lie, numbers don’t!
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/02/12/us/entitlement-map.html
http://www.politico.com/2012-election/map/#/President/2012/
http://www.politico.com/2012-election/map/#/President/2012/
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/02/12/us/entitlement-map.html
If you go by who receives the most welfare, food stamps and government benefits, the lazy class voted for Mitt Romney dummy! CTHU…so uniformed. But I guess the NY Times isn’t credible. Check the links and get back to me and keep working hard.. it does pay off. I feel your pain in regards to working hard, being an entrepreneur and having to work a 9 to 5. I’m in the same boat but guess what, the rich aren’t going to have your best interest at heart.
Jim,
it’s sad to me that people are on food stamps, but the problem is that they’re on food stamps and buying $60 gym memberships!! i think their money would be best spent on things such as food, clothing, a roof over their head! it sound like they’re not managing their money the way they should be.
Sonya,
I’ve been on food stamps before – my husband had a full time job when we were getting that help to feed our children. Newly out of the Air Force, we just couldn’t make enough money. So – lazy – no! Need a hand up? Yes.
Don’t paint everyone receiving assistance with the same “lazy” brush. Sometimes it’s just the circumstances they are in at the moment.
IF and that is a huge if, there are all these people on food stamps buying $60 dollar memberships, then I would say they are breaking the law. Anyone who knows this is happening should report them, immediately. The maximum you can make and get on food stamps is not enough money for extras. I am on food stamps. They last about 2 1/2 weeks. I work….hard. Food stamp fraud is very low. Most of the fraud comes from the middle man. Obama has done quite a bit to fight fraud. Here is one example. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/26/us-usa-foodstamps-idUSBRE88P1K320120926 Also, every time someone uses their food stamps Goldman Sac’s gets a %. So in truth, the 1% get
food stamps too.
Laura I don’t know how it works but a few of my clients say they get cash back on their Oregon trail cards. That is how they pay me. This is also not a $60 membership, these are $60 1hr training sessions. Please let me know how to report them and I will, nothing is more frustrating when your client who does not work is living a more lavish lifestyle than you are because your working.
Hey Jim,
While making an argument, it’s best to make sure you use proper grammar and spell correctly. Your statements would hold much more substance and seem a lot more believable. Otherwise it just looks like angry ranting, and that, my friend, is no way to make an argument or sway individuals to your opinion.
Also, the president is not to blame for people who are lazy and take advantage of programs that actually do help people in need. Not everyone who receives help is lazy so stop spouting misinformation. This whole election people have been using meta terms and grouping people together and I am so sick of seeing that.
Molly,
You should have put a comma after lazy and after together. Instead of focusing on grammar and spelling focus on the facts. The market plunged only hours after Obama was elected. Regardless of how the economy looked in 2008, he has had a large impacts on the lack of progress since then.
Oh come on.. give the guy a break. There is something to be said for correct grammar (and being an English freak I’m usually the one to say it) but a few hiccups here and there like in Jim’s post is not reason enough for such a patronizing disclaimer on your post. You know some people actually do have problems like dyslexia and believe it or not, they are still entitled to an opinion. This is about an election not a spelling bee…
The stock market was at its highest before the election…during Obama’s turn. Also, the reality is that if the stock market doesn’t really affect us as much as they would like you to believe. If they are making more money it means that they have figured out a way to up the profit or lower the expense. Usually it is both. They only hire workers if they have too. If what they are selling is selling a lot. If people are out of work, then there is no one to buy.
I apologize for the grammar and spelling. I received my masters degree in mechanical engineering and was required to take a 100 level and 200 level writing class. With the impression you are under now you would be astonished at the amount of people who brag about the federal help they are getting. As you stated earlier “stop spouting misinformation”, I can guarantee you that I have 8 clients right now who tell me that they wait for their government aid to be received before buying more sessions. And sick of seeing people grouped together by using terms like this? you need to live in an area like NE Portland OR to see this in full effect.
Jim,
Good luck in your job hunting. It’s hard to imagine you are a college graduate based on your grammar and spelling. I hope you have someone double checking your resumes.
Jim,
Just curious, did all of those people from the “lazy class” show you their Obama phone and proof of unemployment & food stamp benefits? That must be one hard gym membership application! In addition, isn’t it also strange to see that those people from the “lazy class” are at the gym? Don’t you have a stereotype for that too?
I hope you don’t ever end up fired, hungry or in need of making an emergency phone. I would hate to see you at the gym with an Obama phone, food stamps or unemployment benefits. I hope you don’t get sick and need to see one of those doctors supplying healthcare too all the unemployed/underemployed workers. Lastly, I really hope you don’t end up taking out some student loans for your graduate school opportunity. I would just hate to see you having to take advantage of any of the amazing loan repayment programs Obama created for people like yourself. That would be tragic.
Really? you are going to go after someone because of their spelling? Jeesh! SMH
How does Jim even know if the people signing up are on food stamps? When I signed up for 24 Hour, they did not ask me what type of assistance I got.
I disagree with Jim’s claims and his sentiment, but his grammar and spelling, while not perfect, are excellent for a college graduate. Ask any graduate student who has to grade upper division undergrad papers, or any HR rep who has to slough through entry level resumes. Yikes.
Thank’s Mike. As I have stated above I received my master in mechanical engineering and realize that I can work on my grammar/spelling.
Vanessa I am a personal trainer and many of my clients wait to pay me after aid comes in, so you are correct in saying that 24 does not ask what kind of assistance you receive.
@Jim: The fact that your coffee shop didn’t work out is no one’s fault but that of its management team.
How about that? A recent college grad who didn’t suddenly get offered the moon? You didn’t tell us your field of study. All that Republican stuff about supply and demand… Is there any demand for someone of your qualifications, whatever they may be?
Thank you for “supporting the lazy class.” Whoever they may be. FWIW — I worked my butt off for 38 years. I happen to be unemployed at the moment. The last company for which I worked shipped most of its jobs to China. TYVM to the Bain Capitals of the nation.
A “tragic day”? By no means. You may personally consider it a tragedy because you perceive yourself to be victimized. I hate to tell you this, but a significant portion of those food-stamp people are working their butts off for substandard wages. A significant portion of those unemployed are, as am I, victims of the corporate-raider mentality. You may consider it to be “tragic” because your preferred candidate lost the election. Get over it. I made the best of it when George W. Bush blew away the balanced budget and started unfunded wars. It’s time to start acting like an adult rather than a petulant child.
Amen! Just a little side note. I am sorry if my punctuation isn’t up to the high standards being upheld here. I am hearing so much about gloom and doom and suddenly a whole bunch of stuff being posted everywhere about freebies and lazy Obama supporters. I would assume most of the gloom and doom, and also most of the freebie and lazy Obama supporters is mostly coming from disgruntled Republicans whose candidate lost in the election and who also had one or more members of their party state that the agenda of the Party was to make sure Obama was a one term president. I just want to say to them. You can help change this gloom and doom mentality and get people back to work so you don’t have to feel like you are just giving your money to undeserving people. All you have to do is tell your elected officials to do their job in congress. It is that easy. Compromise on the issues that make a difference for the country concerning the deficit and the well being of our nation. That should not be very difficult, you Republicans just want to have things all your way or no way and that is not helping. You publicly slam one of your own for saying something nice about a Democrat who is helping that man save lives. Shame on you if you were a part of that. Some democrats are the same way when it comes to having it your way or no way. Both parties need to get over it and get something accomplished in congress. Compromise or be ready to find a new job come 2014. Many people were put in positions where they need some help. Many were put there by a Republican president, and some were put there by president Obama’s policies. People need to stop blaming and start helping.
Some facts on the “obamaphone”
First and most importantly, it wasn’t started by Obama.
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/10/the-obama-phone/
The finger pointing. It’s inefficient. Inefficiency is definitely not helping the problem.
Jim….if you are an entrepreneur and found yourself jobless then apparently you took interest in a failing venture. Better luck next time. I started my “one-man business” 4 years ago and I am doing fine so far.
We are NOT supporting the “lazy class”! I have met many of what you call “lazy class” people and ALL happen to be white…if that makes a difference. Unless you were referring to…shhhhh….minorities……..
When you personal train you learn a lot about your clients. Many have told me that they have not looked for a job in months. I have many clients who are on unemployment and say that they don’t want to look for jobs because they get paid and don’t have to do anything. I have been told that they just need to log on to some web site to show that they have done so, but are not required to actually search for any jobs.
As far as “failing venture” I know I did not execute well (I realize that it is my fault). But while I was making money I was being taxed a ridiculous amount. At least now as a personal trainer I have job stability and am taxed roughly 20% less than I did owning that business. My main complain is the high taxation on small business owners like implementing the payroll tax cut. I was being responsible and payed off my student loans (even graduate loans) but I have friends who are still in school and get Grad plus loans and food stamps who live a far more lavish lifestyle than I do. They eat out at nice restaurants and always have more than enough food to eat. My complain is not that we have these programs but why do we tax small business so much? ( I feel like they are the ones who tend to make more responsible decisions)
Jim, I really empathize with you. I was in my third year of college when I swallowed the “bitter pill” that I couldn’t work and go to school at the same time because my school didn’t have the classes I needed. After I left college, I was let go of my job and had a son. I started a tea company. Things were good though. Then, my husband was let go from his job of 8 years because someone didn’t “like” him. Needless to say, we’re on welfare. We’re on unemployment. He and I work tirelessly to make sure our family through working sporadic clerical and design jobs. Let’s stop pointing fingers. Let’s learn a little more about people before we start judging. Since then, I have accepted a of job and he has some interviews. I am unsure of continuing because this job thinks that since they pay me minimum wage, they can treat me like that as well. We’re not in a rush to accept jobs that are manipulative and abusive which is why I have recently started helping start-ups in employee relations. America is in need of reform, but we need to start rebuilding. One thing we need to start doing:
1.Take responsibility
2.Stop blaming
3.Teach financial literacy
3.Employers should treat they’re employees like people
4.Work together (doesn’t mean agree)-in policy, in work, with each other
Ah Jim. Are you finished whining? Do you still need your Mommy to wipe your ass? I ask this because in EVERY non-third world country, the people who work have ALWAYS paid for the poor. ALWAYS. This isn’t a new thing. It’s been around since the beginning of time! Lazy Class???? Who might they be? Listen up Junior, at least they are not spending their food stamps on Beer and Cigarettes or Drugs!!!!! You are an entrepreneur but claim you can’t find a job???? YOU HAVE A JOB DUMBASS, your Coffee Shop, no?????
Get off your high horse that you who are still wet behind the ears have no business being on because you have NO LIFE EXPERIENCE! 25 is a baby. You don’t have a wife, you don’t have a mortgage, you don’t have children, you are healthy so no health care costs for you, etc. Go beat on someone elses door that has all these things and has a major health issue and see if your statements and judgements are accurate.
People who work and are middle class have ALWAYS gotten screwed. It’s not a new thing. Wrap your miniscule brain around that one. Go back to school and study that part of history. Maybe then you could get a job as a political analyst!
Jim: As a recent College graduate myself I am ashamed of the fact that you are blaming others for your inability to find work. I had difficulties finding employment myself but I was never so arrogant as to blame other people for my troubles. Yes, it was extremely difficult and it took me upwards of 6 months to find a steady job. I do sympathize with you and agree that some people take advantage of the system and I hope you find success and happiness soon. However, it is unfair of you to presume to know the context of a virtual stranger’s life. Everyone has encountered hardships, everyone has experienced their own personal tragedy, you are not unique in this.
The fact of the matter is, that we are operating on a broken system. For years our government was robbing Peter to pay Paul and now it is time to pay our dues. BOTH parties are to blame, as they are so caught up in their own dramatic swordplay to realize that the inertia of the previous policies were building. It is time that they put their egos aside and focused on the reason they were elected, to represent the best interests of the people who placed them in office. I am quite tired of this endless drivel about who did what, IT DOES NOT CHANGE OUR CURRENT REALITY! We are,where we are. And we will remain so, to the detriment of our country, unless people can put the labels of their parties aside and work together to find a solution that is best for the public.
Finally, I will leave you all with this: Humans are unique amongst the species in that they consistently demonstrate an altruistic nature towards their own kind, even if they are not direct kin.
I know that it is difficult to look past these attacks towards your affiliated party because it appears to be a personal affront to your own intelligence. I implore you all to remember your altruistic nature and work towards a common goal. One thing that is consistent amongst all these venomous responses is that we all dream for a prosperous America. So, stop your quibbling, put down your hackles, and open your eyes. We ARE, where we ARE people, until someone makes a move.
I hate to break it to you, but people are still losing their houses, people are not getting jobs, and folks are not spending money. Social programs are not the answer, no where in our constitution does it say that the government will “take care” of us. Small business owners, classified as being rich, are unable to hire due to anemic sales. They are the life blood of our country and they can’t make it. All of this talk about raising taxes so the governement can “take care” of people is a bunch of bull. Hard working people are paying the price. Take a good long look at your pay stub sometime, do you really want less money? If you are barely making it now, how is raising taxes going to help you spend more money? The only way out of bad economic conditions is for consumer confidence to go up, get money flowing. These “super rich” people that get thrown under the bus for being smart businessmen because they invest their money in places they actually get a return on their investment, foreign countries! They would bring their money home if they weren’t going to get squeezed by our government to pay their “fair share”? Fair? What is fair? Who’s definition of fair? If they bring the money home, the stock market goes up, your 401 K goes up, your home value goes up, you spend money, the store owner has to hire people to work in his store, and unemployment goes down, more people paying into the system instead of taking ouf of the system….not very complicated. We live in a democracy, based on capitalism, not “fairness”
That’s why we need to totally revamp our tax system…..I believe the Fair Tax is the way to do that…not the Flat tax, the Fair Tax….www.fairtax.org………
Businesses have plenty of money right now, they’re “afraid” to hire, so right now they’re over working their employees, but we shouldn’t have unions, right?
We experienced the worst economic recession since the Great Depression and everybody thinks we’re going to turn it around in the blink of an eye? It’s going to take years, see the Great Depression…Besides, most Americans before the Great Recession lived within their means instead of above their means, you’d have more and more people doing fine…
I completely agree the flat tax would be the most fair. Not only did i experience a large tax increase from the payroll tax cuts, I was paying about 20% more in taxes owning that coffee shop while it was making money, than I am now at 24hr fitness making barley 19 dollars an hour. There is not benefit to take a risk on owning anything now days due to the tax brackets.
Couldn’t have put it better myself. AMEN!
I have my bachelors degree and have worked my way up the ladder mainly based on hard work and dedication. A few years back, I lost my job and like a lof of other hard working citizens that had no control over the circumstance, we had to rely an unemployment. Without unemployment insurance (which isn’t a lot by the way), I wouldn’t have been able to make ends meet. People are diagnosed with serious health conditions where they can’t work and if they aren’t working, they can’t afford health insurance. There are so many people that are less fortunate, not because they are “lazy” or “co-dependent” but because of unfortunate circumstances. Luckily I was only out of work for a few months and I’m working hard again and making money but at no point (before or after i lost my job) was I that ingnorant enough to think that everyone relying on government programs are choosing to rely on these programs. As much as I love this country and value business, I also understand the importance of helping others in need which to me defines a true American. Yes, there are always people that take advantage of the system and I think there are government programs that need reform but they are a necessity and I gladly contribute my money to those in need and also to my future security. By the way, the small business owners are not the “super rich” and I agree, we need support small business owners and incentivize them to grow. The super rich are paying less in taxes because Bush lowered the capital gains tax (and income tax) which is where the wealthiest Americans make their money. All Obama is saying is to go back to the way it was prior to Bush which considering the despairty in salaries from executives vs the workers, I think they can afford it. I did some research and in 2011 executive salaries were 380 times that of an average worker and back in 1980 was only 47 times higher. So as the wealthiest Americans are making more money and paying less in taxes (thanks to Bush), where is the money trickling down too? Do you see it…does anyone see it right now? Do you think it’s fair that the Wealthiest Americans continue to make more money and pay less in taxes when most of us middle class citizens can barely cover the neccessities? As Obama has said, we need a balanced approach which is increase taxes (back to how it was pre Bush) which will generate revenue while at the same time reform entitlements and cut back on spending. Yes, Obama has increased the deficit but he had to stimulate the economy. Our economy is recovering but now we need to pass legislation to work on lowering the deficit which means both parties need to work together to get this done. By the way, for all the people that said that Obama needs to stop blaming Bush….well we wouldn’t be in this financial mess if it weren’t for him, it’s a FACT and it will be in the history books for all the future generations to see SO you need to accept it and deal with it!
wrong. just wrong. businesses invest the higher taxes get, because they dont want to “lose” the money to taxes. Apparently you didnt see the new study by the NON-PARTISAN Congressional Research System, that pretty much puts to rest the whole lower taxes on rich = economic growth idea. Hint: it doesn’t (you know what does stimulate growth? higher taxes on high earners)
Melissa… sigh… where to begin?
Yes, some people are still losing their houses. The situations that cause foreclosure did not end, nor will they end overnight. The severity of this economic collapse takes 6-8 years to recover from. The FIRST economic indicator didn’t recover from the 1929 Great Depression until 8 years after the collapse. The last economic indicator didn’t fully recover until 1943, 14 years after the Great Depression began.
How can you say “people are not getting jobs” when for the last 30 straight months, people have been getting exactly that? You are not relying on facts, you are using hyperbole, exaggeration and outright lies to try to make a case against a president who has done an amazing job with what he was handed.
Picture it… you hand your keys over to a friend and he burns down your house. You ask another friend for help. He comes in, rebuilds the basement, has the foundation back up, and, four years later, you ask “Why is it not rebuilt?” He says that he IS rebuilding it, but if your first friend would stop interfering with his cement layers and sabotaging the lumber delivery and in every other way trying to stop him from rebuilding, then it would be a little further along. Then you say… “give me those keys. I’m giving them back to my first friend. He’ll fix it.”
Thankfully this past week you did NOT hand the keys back over to the friend who lit the match in the first place.
Some of you think there are two men in the world with “FIX ECONOMY” buttons in their pockets, and one just refused to use it for the last four years, and if you just elected the other guy everything would be fine… you aren’t living in anything like a real world.
I say good luck to you. Talk to me again in four years when we have finally recovered from this economic crater left behind by two unfunded (and one 100% unnecessary) wars, paid for by tax breaks. Then you can talk.
As for Ashanti, thank you for your post. There are millions of people in your situation. You tried. You really did. And things didn’t go perfectly, and now you’re on welfare, you’re on unemployment, you’re on medicare, you’re getting assistance from the state. That’s what a government is FOR. And in turn I hear people calling you (as in a facebook post I endured the other night) “the nothings” of this country. To which I replied that his problem is that he thinks of you as nothings, not “my fellow Americans.”
It’s funny, isn’t it, that the states that yell at you most for taking Government hand-outs are themselves (the Red states) statistically far more likely to take government money and far less to pay in taxes. Almost to a state, those Red states take in far more than they give out in taxes. It’s a self-loathing that makes them so angry. Kind of like all those gay Republican politicians who fight against gay rights because they hate themselves so much. (And there’s no shortage of them.)
Melissa, talk to me again in four years about this day of tragedy…
Marlowe
“You really did. And things didn’t go perfectly, and now you’re on welfare, you’re on unemployment, you’re on medicare, you’re getting assistance from the state. That’s what a government is FOR.”
It is in a socialistic society but that is not the United States. If you want to take a risk and start a business you should not be penalized by having to take care of others. My business is not making any money, so I picked up another job. We need to live with the consequences we make.
L.R. Kopp, your fear-mongering is exactly what the author was trying to point out…Chaos, really? Food Shortage? really, for the most obese nation on the planet? Not going to have election s again in 4 years? Really?
Well when you say it like that, it makes me laugh out loud….. and then cry.
Seriously! You have to be kidding. Seriously? Get up and help your neighbor, some neighbor each day and that might just cure your synicsim about yourself and others. The world is still twirling and this is what a federal republic looks like in action.
Lisa…you can’t say to a political party whose underlying premise is altruism (doing good for others) is wrong. The comments above are proof of that…I have seen in the last several days many “friends” cry: “Who is John Galt”…that is a reference to their goddess’ book Atlas Shrugged and the philosophy of Objectivism. That philosophy says altruism is a sign of weakness.
need to correct a sentence…sorry…you can’t say to a party whose underlying premise is…to do something good to a neighbor. Hope this clarifies.
God made only mankind in his image. We are uniquely singled out bearing the image of God above any other creature. He is the sole object of Christ’s redemptive love. Christ went to the trouble of dying for our transgressions against God by becoming a human first. He went through the process of being put in a womb and being there for 9 months like any other, then born under the human conditions (without sin). Certainly The preexistent Son of God was a person, and he was a person in the womb.
God said to Noah “Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image.” (Gen. 9:6) God points out that man is unique he is worth more than animals.
On September 11th, 2001, Islamic terrorists killed almost 3000 innocent people who were peaceably trying to live their lives. On that same day, 3500 sweet babies died from abortion in America. This, all at a time when there are lines of people, all waiting to adopt these holy innocents. Every day, over 3500 babies are murdered by abortion in the United States. That’s over 1.2 million abortions every year. Obama supports these abortions, Romney doesn’t. To me, Obama’s re-election IS tragic to those babies.
The key word here that describes almost every conservative: fear.
Ya know…I think the Dems and the media are also fear mongers. I wish everyone would start working together and take some stinking responsibility for their behavior…including Democrats. You are not above reproach.
Typical leftist comment to those who would want to protect liberty.
the nation has no “liberty” when groups of citizens are decided to be not deserving of that liberty. ensure equality for everyone, then we can try voodoo economics again.
And you think that Romney would have had any more success than Obama at stopping a worse financial meltdown? Remember the meltdown we are now experiencing started before Obama took office. It was republican policies and leadership that got us here in the first place. I think we have more tough times ahead as a country, but I think the sun will continue to rise and hopefully we learn to work together without name calling to make our country stronger and our citizens safer.
No, actually it was Clinton’s action of the deregulation of the housing market that led to the collapse in 2008. People need to be responsible for their own actions, not what the president is doing. If people know they can’t afford something, then they shouldn’t get into it. It is simple math, but clearly people don’t seem to care about their own education to learn how to properly manage the people. Please understand it has nothing to do with the president on how we do as a nation, but you yourselves. Look in the mirror and point at yourself because it is you, and it is me that have gotten us into this mess. While I may be doing okay and have a full time job there are still ways that I can help improve other peoples lives so they don’t feel lost. We all have a duty to serve, and if you aren’t helping your neighbor, then you have failed.
It seems everyone on the left wants to ” Blame Bush “. The House and Senate was controlled ( Majority )by the Democratic Party 2006 through 2010. That being said. The last two year of George W. Bush term was limited. Its true he owns the mess because it was his term. The first two years of the Obama administration was a Majority. To use a blanket statement that this is Bush’s fault is just not true. Ive attached a site from factcheck.org. If you want to see for yourself :
http://www.factcheck.org/2012/06/obamas-spending-inferno-or-not/
Just sayin….
2006-8 we were bipartisan. We worked with them and passed things.
Obama’s first two years…..http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jennifer-m-granholm/debunking-the-myth-obamas_b_1929869.html
“Sometimes you don’t get a chance to do it again in 4 years.” what the heck do you mean by this? I think you are missing the point of the post. Entirely.
Did you have trouble with reading comprehension? Unless you have clairvoyance and can see into the future, you have no idea what the future may hold! Could be we are in a complete Utopian Society where everyone is happy and content or we could all be totally screwed and good by America. Point is we might have 4 years left we or might not.
You never know.
Also, all I have seen with Obama is failure. You can blame it on Bush that’s ok, however, he was not elected the first term to keep the status quo, remember, “Its time for a change!!” and “Yes, We Can!!”? Well, apparently, No he can’t, and now we have to live with more failures for another 4 years.
I am fervently hoping that Obama does everything he says he intends to do! I said that the day he was elected to the first term. His current Track record and stating that it cant happen in one term, state otherwise. Well Now he is back in, Round 2 is a go. Cant stop it, so hopefully he will actually keep his promises.
You say: “Also, all I have seen with Obama is failure.”
http://whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com/
Go here to educate yourself and feel a bit better about our nation. Unless you want to feel crappy, then keep your eyes and mind closed.
As someone else mentioned, check your grammar–and especially punctuation–and your argument would be more credible. And check your history. If all you can see with Obama is failure, you need glasses. He saved the American auto industry. He ended the war in Iraq. He got rid of Osama Bin Laden. He gained the respect of the rest of the world. Polls of other countries showed overwhelming international support for Obama. He maybe didn’t accomplish everything he wanted to or that you would have liked him to, but it is a gross exaggeration to say you see nothing but failure.
Mary, I have to disagree with a couple of things you said. Yes Obama did end the war in Iraq, but have you checked on the stability in that country lately? It turns out it isn’t all that great. And second of all the Osama Bin Laden thing I totally disagree with you on that one. That wasn’t Obama. That was Seal team 6 and our Intelligence Agencies all over the world. All Obama did was said was go. That Operation had been kept under raps since 2007. Oh guess who was in office then. The same Man that everyone wants to blame after 4 years for our economic woes.
You know – the great lord Cthulhu could rise from the sea. Who knows? I sure don’t. I’m not a mind reader, so he may just rise up and throw this world into a thousand years of darkness. So! Let’s just toss it into a sentence to get people riled up because we can always use the justification of ‘you never know!’
Logic = sound.
Okay. I’ve read the last “grammar” correction I can stomach. I’ve been an English professor for almost a decade, and while I will agree that good basic grammar and syntax DOES increase a writer’s credibility, even MORE important and of more SIGNIFICANT concern should be awareness of context and audience. This is an informal online forum, not a peer-reviewed, academic journal (I assure you that if those journal articles WEREN’T peer-reviewed, they too would have mistakes.
So stop being pretentious. To point out incorrect grammar is weak argument in itself and undermines YOUR credibility. And you’re making those of us who TEACH grammar but RESPECT people look bad.
Oh, and you might want to check your own syntax before you start throwing grammar stones.
Oops. I’ve been an English professor for almost two decades. I suppose I was wishing I was younger!
L.R. Kopp…they level of stupidity in your post is staggering. And here’s the thing: no one is buying your Obama Is The Debil nonsense anymore.
YOU lost the election. Not Romney.
You and every other radical extremist calling Obama a Muslim (which he’s not), a socialist (heck, he’s barely a liberal) and plastering your car with racist bumperstickers.
YOU pushed the middle left…and gave Obama the election.
Now…choke on it.
Obama is a radical, socialist. Frank Marshall David, Bill Ayers, Jeremiah Wright. Need I say more ? If you don’t who those people are then look them up or call Obama and ask him.
Matthew, there is something radically wrong with you. This president has been relected with the worst economic record since the great depression. The economy is going over the cliff….and don’t blame George Bush for that as he tripled the deficit in 3.5 years. It turns out that Obama’s childhood mentor, Frank Marshall Davis, was a communist. However, through Frank Marshall Davis, Obama had an admitted relationship with someone who was publicly identified as a member of the Communist Party USA CPUSA). The record shows that Obama was in Hawaii from 1971-1979, where, at some point in time, he developed a close relationship, almost like a son, with Davis, listening to his “poetry” and getting advice on his career path. But Obama, in his book, Dreams From My Father,refers to him repeatedly as just “Frank.” You can certainly tell where this is going…
To which I’m driven to ask —
If Obama IS a Muslim (which he’s not) — so what? There are Muslim Americans and maybe they’d like a president just like them.
If Obama IS a Communist (which he’s not) — so what? Are we so fragile as a country, that we can’t have anything challenge our true national religion, Capitalism?
Neither of those things frighten me. The Communist charges have always struck me as blowback to people who would love a return to McCarthyism.
Matthew,
Well said. The vitriolic, racist and scaremongering rhetoric from what was formerly the Republican party definitely woke up a beast. When you can see the forest through the trees, it’s clear that Obama is far from the worst president EVER!! A daily dose of right-wing media has created a warped mindset about what type of president Obama is.
For me, it’s refreshing to see that we no longer need the vote of the racist, ultra-religious, white, male to elect a president. Any party that continues to cater to them will eventually be extinct. Any party that continues to pretend that the minority/women vote aren’t important, even vital, will be extinct. I for one cannot wait for the modern Republican party to go away. Their ideology is absolutely repugnant.
L.R. (and everyone):
Not one of us is guaranteed that we will even see TOMORROW (let alone 4 years) no matter who our President may be. So live today with a spirit of peace, love and cooperation.
This country was founded on the principles of freedom and tolerance. Too many folks have become less tolerant and therein lies the risk to freedom. Whatever happened to respect for the position of president of this country? Our country is only made better by all who are willing to represent us.
Well said! I couldn’t agree more. Instead of arguing about which party is to blame, why don’t we use that energy to work together to solve the problems we are facing. Lets face it, if we things to change, than that change has to start with us. Politics is a massive cluster where no matter who the president is, it’s difficult to make changes. However, people working together can make changes. Far more than we believe we can. So maybe stop arguing and begin working together!
well said!
Who is to blame for the fiscal cliff? The “obstuctionist” Congress is! Now that Obama received a second term, let’s see if the divided Congress wants to finally play and get things done. Their focus should be on moving this country forward, not their own agendas…
L.R. if the Republicans lose the house in 2 years then it will be a tragic day..but until then hope for the best and expect the worse..God can still bless us if we turn from our wicked ways and put him first in all that we do..Our only prayer is that the Reps. keep the house in 2 years or there will be no more 2 party system and the dems/liberals will control everything then..but everyone in congress needs to get off their behinds and stop the fiscal cliff from happening in Jan.. we can get our country back !!!! we need bi-partisanship more then ever at this moment..put your political differences aside and get this country headed in the right direction !!!!
Sometimes though being plunged into chaos is exactly what we need. Once that happens I pray that all the politicians will see that it will take being bipartisan to get anywhere. If we truly want to continue being the greatest country on earth we need to stop head-butting over blue and red, democrat or republican, or one side vs the other. We need to come together to fix things and to put our once great and United nation, which is now a greatly divided nation, back together and back on course.
If that is to ever happen it will be when both sides agree to return to the values this great country was founded on otherwise it will never be. The span of values are far to seperated to unite without a return to what we were when we were great. we were a republic not a democracy or a socialist etc
Meh… First off- the Fiscal Cliff is just a recession maker, we have lived through that, it would be unnecessary, and it is a pretty good case for fiscal stimulus (in that if you believe that reducing .gov spending and raising taxes is going to be a negative then you are arguing that maintaining this de facto stimulus is a positive so you are at the same time also making a case that we are in a zero bound deflationary period- all of that justifies selling US 10 yrs or 30 yrs at historically low rates and spending to create GDP growth… but I digress) but the fiscal cliff is NOT a cliff, it is a ditch.
First the can gets kicked from Lame duck to the double lucky 213th congress, and then a grand deal on tax reform either happens or the R’s filibuster to a stalemate and THEN we get the “fiscal ditch”. IMO that would be a bad political move because while the electorate aren’t quants with macro skills they will feel the pain resulting from gridlocked induced recession and another credit downgrade. So 2014 could get dicey, as in the electorate might Etch-a-sketch congress. Either way it is a natural function of efficiencies… yes I do believe that… and whether congress inflicts great pain now and endures the slings and arrows of the failed stand-up comedian Grover Norquist and the Tea Party, or else they stomp the can flatter than the 2014 economy and reap the whirlwind of a larger constituency, it is all going to work out in the end. This is the US after all, where we come to correct solution after all else has been tried.
Free Mongering and People like You who buy into it are part of the problem I.R and not the solution. Riots if Obama lost the election… That was one of the worse jokes I heard during this whole election season. One that was used as a scare tactic to scare older people and just timid people into voting for someone with a record as bad as Romney’s was. Mister Silly Putty (mold me however you want me to be. I can be remolded again and again) has finally taken enough of a beating to give up! I HOPE!!!
The point is that many people believe that we won’t be able to do this again in 4 years, that martial law is a real threat in our future, that the bread lines in the form of welfare and food stamps are already looming over all of us, that are freedoms will be obliterated one by one in the very near future, and that we will soon be classified as one of those “third world” countries that your parents fled……seriously…..we have already been demoted from number one all the way down to number seven….not much farther to go for third world status and probably already too far gone to ever regain our footing. Might as well go back to Poland!
Well, I remember last election everyone said we would be reading the Qur’an and wearing burkas worshiping Allah and living with constant terrorist attacks.. None of that happened.. So relax! Im so tired of all the fear mongers.. Stay away from Fox news and get some real perspective… And if Congress gets off their butt and starts finally working with our President rather than against him, we will not fall off any fiscal cliff!! SO I highly recommend if you are really this frightened you write your congressman or woman and let them know just how worried you are, and tell them that if they do not work with our President to fix this thing, you will not vote them back in office.. Stop complaining about what others are not doing and do something yourself…
I agree with L. R. Kopp exactly and I add shame on them for hiding the attacks on our drone. I do agree the discussions dont need to be so disgusting but I venture to say they would be much worse if Mr. Romney was taking over. My heart also goes out to all the coal miners who just lost there jobs today and may I then say Thank you Mr. Obama you can no longer blame all this on anyone but your team. May god come soon and save us all.
This is my fear as well, 4 more yrs! This man that in all honesty was elected by people who have NO CLUE, is going to severely damage this country more than he already has !!! We are so headed down a path we are not going to be able to come back from. If I say all I want to say, I will be deleted, reported and probably flogged on the court house stairs. Just get ready people, time are getting ready to be harder than the Great Depression.
The Fiscal Cliff means going back to the bad old days of Clinton Tax rates. OMG it was so terrible and no jobs were created then…… NOT. Like 20 million jobs created under the Clinton Tax rates. And on top of that since they have been drilling with fracking we NOW EXPORT more petroleum products than we have since 1949. Oh sure energy independence and falling fuel prices is gonna take us over the fiscal cliff. More scare tactics from the right.
Well said! And thank you for putting into perspective just how much we all have to be thankful for in this country.
Your Facebook friend certainly had the right to say what they said. You, too, had the right to un friend them. What a wonderful country we live in.
Thanks Jo for writing this! I am going to share it 🙂 I feel the exact same way!!
Well said! Thank you!
I must first say the first part was very well writen. I started to zone out after the first pic of a truly tragic day in our greatnations history. I want to also point out that this election was about much more then who will be in office the next 4 years! Supreme Court is something we as Americans DO NOT get to vote on. Once someone is in they stay till death most times. Do you know who picks them and help get them in office? The current president who was just elected, that’s who! I know for a fact that I DO NOT believe alot of what he beliefs. Who ever gets into that office will effect our country for 30+ years. This is why today was a sad day for me. Because people who do not hold the same values and/or beliefs that I do will be in office when my kids will have to live with whatevery they say. NEXT TIME try to see the whole picture not just the next four years.
So what? If the election had gone the other way then people who do not hold the same values and beliefs that *I* do would be on the Supreme Court. What makes you so much more special than me? Nothing. NEXT TIME, why don’t YOU try to see the whole picture. You are not the only one in it. Believe it!
Thank you, Rachel – I was thinking the same thing.
Very well said!!! We are a country of many peoples and we used to try to work together. But since personal responsibility and love thy neighbor went out of fashion we have been spiralling.
You are not getting the point that to some people (read SOME) it honestly, truly is a long-term tragedy because the effects are not a simpleton’s “only 4 years.” The effects are longer lasting. The blog author said it wasn’t sad because it’s only 4 years.
The point David clearly made that you failed to grasp is that there is indeed a reason for some to be sad and call it a tragedy, because it will directly impact 30+ years of America’s course.
I hope this explains it to you.
David, again that is the point. We are a country with people of all different values. And here in America we are allowed to have them and vote for the person(s) we think will best follow through with our values. And this may come as a surprise but, your children will one day be adults and will then have their own values, which may or may not be the same ones you have today.
David, your guy got to appoint his fair share of Supreme Court justices pre-2008, so don’t worry. Your voice is already in the mix of the Supreme Court.
Fifty percent of the people in our country do agree with the beliefs of the president we just reelected. The justices appointed by Obama will balance the opinions of the justices appointed by Bush and so on and so on. Our forefathers knew what they were doing. We are all going to be fine.
Perhaps you should reread what she wrote. You say this was a sad day for you. She never said there was a problem with being sad. She said that calling it a TRAGIC day was far too extreme, as tragic days are when actual tragedies happen. Perhaps the President will appoint someone to the Supreme Court that you do not agree with, but there is no guarantee that those 4 people are going to die or retire within Obama’s term, and there is no guarantee that he will not appoint people with various beliefs and ideals. He has done that sort of thing more than any recent President. NEXT TIME, why don’t you try reading what someone writes in full and try to take in their meaning, their whole picture, not just pick out the parts you want to focus on miss the entire point of the essay. Also, while you are so concerned that the Supreme Court Justices appointed are ones your children are going to have to be effected by, what is to say that your children will agree with YOUR viewpoints on those issues??? The next generation often does NOT agree with the last one, that is what we call progress.
US Supreme Court Justices are nominated by the current President, presented to the Senate Judiciary Committee for investigation, then accepted or rejected by the US Senate.
Please. How often does this even happen during a Presidential term? And your statement is incorrect.
Let’s all just step aside and make sure Mr. Knight gets everything HIS way according to what HE believes (or as he says “beliefs”)….screw the other 300 million of us.
Well said, Mr. Maffett!
Sigh again at the petty, pretentious, pedantic grammar corrections — transparent attempts to make opponents feel inferior — as if you have never publicly made English usage mistakes yourself. Hell, I’m an academic, and I make them all the time. You all do NOT want me to go through these mean-spirited posts with my red pen. I ASSURE you that NONE of you have posted an error-free post.
Also, David, if the Supreme Court were actually doing what they were supposed to, their political beliefs would not affect their vote. They are supposed to uphold the Constitution and decide whether laws are constitutional. They are NOT supposed to give their personal opinion, beliefs, or “interpretations” of what they think the Constitution meant to say. I would worry about the fact that our Supreme Court is using their own personal beliefs to shape their decisions much more than who the president will choose next.
Personally I am 100% proof that children don’t necessarily carry the same beliefs or values as their parents. My mother was and is a hard-core Romney supporter, and one of the idiots declaring it a “tragedy” that Obama was re-elected. and yes, I think she’s an idiot in this respect.
So many people are STILL blaming Obama for not instantly fixing the mess Bush caused. However they refuse to acknowledge the fact that the REPUBLICAN Senate BLOCKED almost EVERY measure Obama brought to the house. Over three HUNDRED times… more times that ANY other term before, during any number of terms COMBINED.
Perhaps if the Republicans would pull their heads out of their asses long enough to actually VOTE on the merit of the measures presented, instead of blocking the vote from going through JUST because it’s from Obama, the country might have a better chance at recovery and things being fixed.
I personally HATE political parties and think they should be outlawed. To hell with which “side” you’re on. All I care about is what you HAVE done and what you want to do… And that’s all that should matter.
The real “tragedy” of this election is that people are behaving so badly, making such awful, hurtful and uncalled for statements.
A friend and I were having a discussion and came to the conclusion that if Washington, Jefferson and the others who created our Constitution were to somehow be able to visit our time, they would appalled and horrified by what has become of the country they founded. This is NOT what they intended in the slightest. They wanted a free secular (NON-religious) country where the people had a say in the government and were free from persecution for having “different” beliefs or opinions.
Nicely put! Great to have freedom of speech!
Amen Mr. Knight
Like the right wing court under Bush that gave us Citizens United that allowed even foreign donations to fund our political races. Totally undisclosed donations from billioniares all over the globe. SURE that right wing court really served our Country…. said no one EVER except for you.
all I have to say to this is….. Thank you for articulating what’s been bumtumbling around in my head for the last couple of days. Very well said and I could NOT agree more
Amazing! Well written! Thank you.
I had a similar thought as I went to bed last night. I felt that last night should have been patriotic- even thought I’m conservative, and voted as such. I wanted our country to come together like we did the year that FOLLOWED 9/11/01- that was almost the last time it seems we were UNITED. After that we became SO divided. Great post.
Kendall – what a RELIEF to read your comment. I’ve been reading attack after insult after putdown here, and I’d pay good money to know what these kvetchers DO in their daily lives to make our country a better place. Bitching and finger-pointing is so last century. If people would spend any time trying to get to know people who disagree with them, and WHY they do, we might make some actual progress here. I find it wonderfully large-minded of you as a conservative to offer the olive branch after a nasty, seemingly-endless campaign. Sure, we ALL have hopes and fears for our own lives and our country. But whether or not you agree with someone, you can bet their deepest needs and fears are as human as your own. Demonizing people will get us absolutely nowhere, ever. Complaining is so mindlessly EASY. Instead of attacking each other’s candidates, opinions, and beliefs, let’s put our energy into insisting that the Congress WORK TOGETHER and compromise for their employers: the American people. They work for us, and if all we can do is bitch, nothing will ever change. And I think that would actually qualify as tragic.
The only hope we have is that congress doesnt lay down and give in to all his nonsense, If they do we won’t make it to another election. God forgive us for calling bad good and good bad. Allowing everyone to do as they please ( abortion, gays, pot, lazy etc) without consequence is what is tragic about this day and it will be the fall of this great nation and trust me it is falling. It is as simple as me claiming I dont like to stop at stop lights and because I am an american I have the god given right not to have any laws or rules against what I like to do. So I am gonna buy a tank and go traveling and I hope you dont get in my way cause I have the right. It’s all insanity absolute chaos.
David W Knight, Sr. is doing it again, Jo. The president doesn’t hold the same beliefs as he does, so he is sad. David, this is a concequence of living in a nation where we are all entitled to our own beliefs. Deal with it. I would feel the exact same way if Romney had been elected, and did feel the same way when GW was in office, but went on living my life just as I would have under Gore- bought homes, got an education, had children, took vacations, etc. 50% of the nation feels that way at any given time. But if you are going to ask Jo to see the big picture, please do so yourself, sir, and consider the stroke of luck that has you living a life of freedom and liberty, and the million other forces that come into play to affect our quality of life here on Earth. The president and a set of Supreme Court justices aren’t going to have that much influence compared to the control we each have over our own destinies.
I think that David W. Knight, Sr has the right to voice his opinion. It is people like you that make it so that others can’t voice there opinion because if it isn’t like yours then we are close minded. I did not want Obama I did not want Romney. Neither one of them understand what it is like to grow up poor to lower middle class. The people that would do good for the normal working blue collar Americans never make it in BECAUSE THE POLITICIANS (which includes Obama, Romney, Biden, Bush, Hillary Clinton and so on) WILL NOT LET THEM RUN FOR OFFICE. Do you know that Bill Clinton was the ONLY president in the past 20 years that did not make our deficit grow? So see how you deal with this. I believe in GOD, I do not believe in gay marriages, I do not believe in abortion. I do not hate anyone for their race, sex, or creed. I do not judge, because the only one that will judge me is Jesus, and you are not him. Have a great day. 🙂 and I am not closed minded this is what I believe and this is America. I supposely I am suppose to voice my opinion and not get persacuted, but I do by people that do not share my believes. So you do not want us to do that to you but it is done to me all the time because I am a Christian and believe the bible is law. We are suppose to be in the world not of the world, and anything that the bible says is a sin and the government does anyway is the world. It was Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. And why is it ok for a woment to kill her baby by abortion and not get persucuted but a person could murder that women while she is pregnant and get tried for a double murder where is the justification to that. I am saying that it is wrong in both counts but how is it different it is not. So if a person can get tried for a double murder my killing a pregnant women then women who have an abortion should also get tried for murder isn’t the same thing.
They are somewhat different. A woman who has an abortion is doing so by choice for her health and body, just like a woman who willingly gets pregnant. If someone murders a pregnant woman, that choice is also taken away; her choice to have a baby or maybe even before she could make the choice not to keep the baby. In cases of rape, that choice over her body is also taken away. She can take back that choice by choosing to keep the baby under the horrible circumstances or to abort. Maybe it doesn’t make sense to you, but it does to me. Not everything is black or white.
I do not advocate abortion as a form of birth control, but I am an advocate for at least allowing the option to be there. I’m also an advocate for better sex education in schools and more readily available birth control options for women so that not as many young girls have to rely on abortions.
For her “health and body”. Really? How many abortions are really performed because of a woman’s “health”? If so did the woman go to the doctor and he/she said, “Look, you should really get this being out of your body, for your healths sake.” Are you kidding me?
Yes, it can happen.
For example, a woman could be presented with an ectopic pregnancy. This is one where the egg has attached itself to a fallopian tube. This will always end up either with a spontaneous miscarriage, OR an emergency abortion to remove the pregnancy, OR the mother will get extremely ill and likely die. The only possible outcome from an ectopic pregnancy is ending the pregnancy, one way or another. This presents in the first trimester.
There are other conditions where the pregnancy can jeopardize the mother’s health as well.
I think in a just society, we have to acknowledge that this issue is a personal matter, and give each person the freedom to follow their conscience. Until the fetus can survive outside the womb, the mother’s life takes precedence.
Abortions have happened in every culture and time. Safe or not. Legal or not. We cannot impose our personal religious values on another person’s body who may not share those views and call ourselves just.
Thousands every year. And BTW thousands of women DIE from their pregnancies every year. Do some research.
I have to admit this choice excuse makes me angry. The choice my friends is whether to engage in the act that creates pregnancy not what to do with the pregnancy. There has never been a person ever that chose to get pregnant it happens as a result of the act. Many engage in the act and hope for pregnancy and it never comes and the opposite is true they engage in the act praying they won’t get pregnant. Once she is pregnant it is no longer just her body but that poor life is not given a voice just as in the case of the woman being murdered. But again the philosophy that I have the right to do whatever I want with no consequences will be the fall of our nation
Sheather, Vey well said, I agree with you completely!!!!!
I also agree with Sheather – it’s a child, not a choice. It’s never, ever right. I know someone who was a product of rape and would never wish that she weren’t born. I also personally know someone who was the victim of rape and also got pregnant, yet loves her child unconditionally. My sister was told when she was four months pregnant, that she should abort her child, since it was going to be born with many birth defects and probably, not live to be more than a few months old. She lived to be 3, with in home care; they loved her like they would any child; and Never, Ever wished she had aborted that child. Think about, God created these human beings.
Sheather, and those who agree with her thoughts about abortion. Would you suggest that someone who aborts a fertilized egg (six-week pregnancy, for example) should get the death sentence for murder? I am very interested to hear your opinions on this.
Yes KGBS, also I believe that it is the possibility of life. Until that fetus can live on its own, breathe the breathe of life, then it is only the possibility of a child. I respect the right for a woman to choose.
Kathleen,
I understand your point of view and I am not advocating for abortion. However, I think these individuals choose what option best suited their ideals and lifestyle. Just because these women did well and loved their children who were conceived by rape does not mean that another woman will look at that child and relive those terror filled moments when she was attacked. To not give someone that option over their own body is the same as taking away their other freedoms. Government would never tell a woman that she is not allowed to have a child nor should it tell a women that she is obligated to have a child. To draw a strong metaphor, rape is also when a woman’s right to choose what happens to her body is taken away from her.
The problem is not what you believe…it’s what you think I should believe.
Thank you gill.
I fear the day that the people who think they have the best of intentions accidentally create a theocracy. So, they can believe what they like, but our country is not, and shall never, run on biblical law.
A lot of my vote (against Romney) decision was because of the supreme court placements. I worry about those who rise with might against the lifestyle of the middle east, only to advocate a similar situation over here. And if one cannot see how the slippery slope of “life begins at conception” and “God’s definition of marriage” being written into law can slide easily into a controlling theocracy, I am surprised.
Kim,
Religion does not determine when life begins, science does. Consult any of the standard human-embryology texts, such as Moore and Persaud’s The Developing Human, Larsen’s Human Embryology, Carlson’s Human Embryology & Developmental Biology, and O’Rahilly and Mueller’s Human Embryology & Teratology.” – Dr. Robert George
“Human embryos, whether they are formed by fertilization (natural or in vitro) or by successful somatic-cell nuclear transfer (SCNT — i.e., cloning), do have the internal resources and active disposition to develop themselves to the mature stage of a human organism, requiring only a suitable environment and nutrition. In fact, scientists distinguish embryos from other cells or clusters of cells precisely by their self-directed, integral functioning — their organismal behavior. Thus, human embryos are what the embryology textbooks say they are, namely, human organisms — living individuals of the human species — at the earliest developmental stage.”
Our constitution has provisions to protect it. No religion involved in that equation.
As for marriage, this is a democracy. If most people choose the definition of marriage as between one man and one women, that should be the law of the land. What worries me, is that because some people do believe this they are called hater’s and treated with disdain and the very hatred that gays have rallied against. Sounds like kids on the play ground.
The tide is turning on gay marriage. So be it.
It doesn’t look like either sides can make it work. 🙂
Thank you gill! They complain about what THEY think others should do because of what THEY believe…know what I think ? They should take care of all of these babies that they want a women-who clearly has control of her body to decide which way it go, and see how they feel then!
Um, most people who murder pregnant women AREN’T tried for double homicide, because many courts haven’t decided when life begins and there is no national standard for when life begins. Your Bible tells you it’s at conception. Good for you and your Bible. I don’t believe in your Bible. It is MY body, and if someone puts something in there and I don’t want it there, didn’t ask for it, I shouldn’t have to keep it. That’s MY belief. The difference is, I’m not going around forcing others to have abortions when I think it’s damn foolish of them to go through with a pregnancy, as in it might KILL her. It’s her RIGHT to CHOOSE. No one should make that choice for anyone else. And why should YOUR religious beliefs trump mine? HAVE your opinion, and may God bless you for it, but we shouldn’t be legislating religious beliefs that limit people’s rights. So things like allowing Gay Marriage and Women’s Rights are best for the country because limiting these things is unpatriotic. Don’t like it? Go move to a country with a Christian government.
The thing is Catie, this is a Christian Country
Wrong Yepper. This country is secular, with a majority Christian. There are other practicing religions in the United States. There are people who don’t practice at all. Forcing any one of those outside of your Christian faith to believe what you believe invalidates the entire idea of freedom of religion. This in turn ties into freedom of choice or freedom to marry. Once you begin to write laws from a moral (religious) perspective, you’re stepping on the freedoms of other citizens in this country.
You as a Christian are free to believe that abortion is wrong (so don’t have one) or that marriage is between a man and an woman (so don’t marry someone of the same sex). But you cannot force other citizens in this country to agree with you because of ‘God’ and still claim this country is a free one.
Um, no, it isn’t. The founding fathers, those people whose corpses the right keep trying to dig up to rally patriotism, actually disagree with you.
Thomas Jefferson himself coined the phrase, “a wall of separation between church and state”, and Joel Barlow, the diplomat who represented the United States for then-President John Adams (and was a chaplain to George Washington’s unit in the revolutionary war) explicitly mentioned in his draft of the Treaty of Tripoli, which was approved by the senate, secretary of state, and President Adams, the following, “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion”.
So there it is, right from the mouths of the people who built this country, written by the hand of a man who personally served both God and George Washington. Being in the majority does NOT make the United States a Christian nation any more than it is a white nation.
“The thing is Catie, this is a Christian Country”
http://www.alternet.org/story/155985/5_reasons_america_is_not_–_and_has_never_been_–_a_christian_nation
Fortunately not everyone is christian. Men should have nothing to say about what a woman does with her body. You don’t believe in abortion DON’T HAVE ONE but you have no right to tell me or any woman what she can or cannot do with her body.
No, it is NOT a Christian country, and never was.
“In God We Trust” was adopted as a motto in 1956.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_we_trust
The leading founding fathers were neither Christian nor even Deist, but rather supporters of “Theistic Rationalism”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States
The founding fathers, who came from a variety of backgrounds, very specifically did not want religion involved in the government. Your revisionist Christian-Right philosophies do not make it suddenly so.
Sorry, Yepper. This is NOT a “Christian Country”. It is predominantly Christian (78.4% Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States), but that leaves that other 21.6% who are free to worship (or not worship, as the case may be) as they please.
Christianity and God are not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution. If you do the research, you’ll find that most of the Founding Fathers were not “Christian”.
Source: http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html
Subscription to Christian principles is not the same as membership in Christianity. You’ll find that most of Judaism, for instance, subscribes to the same principles.
We all have opinions. We all espouse thoughts of one flavor or another. But if you’re going to state something as fact, please do the research or let us know whose research you’re quoting. Otherwise we’ll write you off as a sore loser.
Um, no it’s not. It’s a country with religious freedom. It is not run or governed by Christianity, I don’t live by your religious law. Therefore, not a Christian country. So, the thing is Yepper, you’re wrong.
No, Yepper, it is not. The First Amendment states that Congress shall make no law concerning religion, which was intended to prevent this country from becoming a theocracy. John Adams stated in the Treaty of Tripoli that this country is not a religious nation. Most all of the Founding Fathers were deist or agnostic, not the hardcore Christians so many people seem to think that they were.
I myself am Christian and I am relieved that our country is not a Christian one, no matter how hard the politically active wings of some churches have tried to push Christian agendas through the legislature. Our country is not a Christian nation, but it is a diverse and welcoming one where all people, regardless of what faith they do or do not practice, are welcome. As long as they aren’t pushing those beliefs on me, just like they don’t want my beliefs pushed on them, America’s going to get along just fine.
Yepper,
Sure. Christianity is the dominant religion in this country. However, it is not a Christianity-GOVERNED country. This is a secular nation. Ever heard the term “melting pot”? It’s what this country was built on. Not shoving one religion down someone else’s throat. Not EVERYONE is a Christian in this country, and they are free to decide for themselves. Laws restricting the rights of citizens can’t be made in a SECULAR nation if the only argument they can provide is God. I believe any one in this country can have their own personal relationship with God without using that relationship to judge and restrict the rights of others who may or may not share those beliefs. If “Adam” wants to marry “Steve”, how is that going to affect me or the way I choose to live my life? It’s not. At all. Is allowing gay marriage going to hurt any straight couple’s marriage. No. Is letting a gay couple get married going to somehow turn straight people gay? No.
And how does “Jane” deciding to have an abortion affect you or me? Again. It doesn’t. No one is trying force people to have abortions. It’s called pro-CHOICE. Not pro-abortion. I am completely pro-choice, and I CHOSE not to have an abortion when faced with an unplanned pregnancy because it wasn’t right for ME. I have no valid reason to enforce that on someone else.
Maybe “Adam”, “Steve” and “Jane” don’t believe in your God. Come up with a valid argument why these things are so wrong that doesn’t involve religion. This country is built on freedom of religion (which includes the right to not believe in any religion) and the right to pursue life, liberty and happiness, provided you’re not encroaching on the rights of others trying to do the same thing. I think that’s all “Adam”, “Steve” and “Jane” are trying to do. Pursue their form of happiness, which isn’t taking away any of your rights or mine.
Yepper: no, it’s not. It’s a country of religious freedom, and freedom FROM religion, if that’s what one chooses.
You know, Land of the Free and all that Civics class stuff that christian fundamentalists seemed to have dozed through during high school.
I am sorry Yepper – this is not a Christian Country. This is a country in which it’s Constitution allows all people to practice whatever religion they so choose (or no religion at all). The Founding Fathers made that perfectly clear when they seperated church and state and made the First Amendment the freedom of religion.
No, yepper…this is a country of religious FREEDOM! Try another country..any other country where they virtually tell you what religion to believe in….
Incidentally, the Bible hasn’t always said that human life begins at conception: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/02/18/the-biblical-view-thats-younger-than-the-happy-meal/
The fact that you said it’s Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve shows EXACTLY how closed-minded you are. And if a pregnant woman is murdered, the murderer can only be tried for a double murder if the fetus had reached a viable point. Abortion is only legal in the first weeks of pregnancy, LONG before the fetus is viable. It is not murder. Women should have the RIGHT to do as they please with their bodies. You don’t vote on RIGHTS, you’re born with them!
Sunny, contrary to what you believe, abortion is legal in this country up through the whole gestation period; i.e., nine months, as in the day before a baby is due to be born a “mother” can choose to abort her baby.
Ah, but you do judge. You judge with your beliefs. We all do. We judge people who are different from us. In my experience, those who are the most vocal about NOT judging are the ones that are the MOST judgmental in their hearts. I am judgmental, I am not perfect and I do my best not to cast stones because of that. And we would do well to remember that in Matthew, where it says “Judge not lest ye be judged” that this does not mean don’t judge ever, it means IF you are going to judge that you’d better be darned certain that you’re willing to judge others by the same standards.
Well said, Claire!! Couldn’t agree more!!
You seem to misunderstand the point of the post. We all have the right to share our opinion, but that does not mean that everyone gets to express their opinion without any reaction or debate from others. We all get to express our opinions, but that means that the other person gets to also offer their opinion, and it might not be a positive response. That is ok. We should not be so fearful of thoughtful debate in this country, if you judge too quickly and assume that others have the power to “make it so you can’t voice your opinion”, then you’re missing the opportunity to have a real discussion with someone and maybe make some progress.
By your own account, if you have children who disrespect you, you should have killed them and not be tried as a murderer. You can’t pick and choose what laws of the bible to follow. If you were told to kill your child because someone overheard them disrespect you, you would not do it. You have the right to your opinion, but because you believe marriage equally shouldn’t exist, that means it shouldn’t exist for everyone? I am gay. I just want to be equal and marry the man I love. I don’t want special laws, just equal laws in the eyes of the government. Some people believe in God, some people don’t. Because you do, you want to subject everyone else to your beliefs? How is that fair? We will all face God and be judged by him, but while on this Earth, and in this country, we need man made laws to follow. The bible said nothing about speed limits. I wonder why? Oh, right! No cars. We’ve evolved so much and not everyone believes in the same thing. Live your life right and you’ll be fine. Force your beliefs on everyone; well, I wonder how God would feel about that.
“You can’t pick and choose what laws of the bible to follow” — I think that’s your rule, not the OP’s.
Also, while my knowledge of ev bio is scant, I’m not sure it’s accurate to claim there have been any measurable effects of human evolution over ~2500 years.
Sheather, I think you entirely missed the point Lisa was making. David W. Knight was complaining because since things didn’t go his way that he was sad…which is his right, but for him to say that someone needs to open there eyes to the big picture, just because he didn’t get his way is ridiculous. The American people voted Obama in we ARE the big picture. Now to your other “points”. It’s amazing how many times you contradict yourself “I am not close minded” and ” I don’t judge.” then you turn around and bash gay marriage because a book written by MAN doesn’t really even address the issue. If you can show me one passage in the Bible that says gay people shouldn’t be married I will eat my words and become a staunch Republican. btw I don’t mean imply, I mean directly state it. I guess you don’t believe in wearing condoms or using contraception either because isn’t sperm just half of a baby, a baby waiting to be born. And since spermicide kills sperm aren’t you killing millions of potential babies. We can play that game all day. I am a Christian too, I’m just not YOUR kind of Christian, but that’s okay, I don’t have to be. Jesus spoke out about certain things, but he never said, “You must believe everything i believe or you are going to hell.” God did dictate I think it was 10 commandments…and as far as I can tell there was nothing about gay people in them…right? You are entitled to your opinion, and to worship your God however you see fit, but don’t go shoving YOUR God down MY throat.
So, someone calls you “close-minded” and you think they are persecuting you? You might need to check a dictionary for more than the spelling. (But, yeah, also the spelling.)
The First Amendment doesn’t give you the right to get the last word in.
Again, this goes back to that whole “melting pot” idea. You think that the Bible is God’s Law. I don’t any more. I did when I was younger, but not so much any more. And when the Founding Fathers saw that Quakers were being persecuted in Pennsylvania (I think it was PA), they realized that if any religion became the state religion, those who weren’t of that religion were going to be attacked. So they created this wall between church and state. I’m free to tell you what I think of your religion, you are free to follow it and no one can lock either of us up for that. That’s part of being in a free nation. You have to accept that people are different from you. Maybe explore it. Go talk to a LBGT person, and just listen without the Bible BS in your ears. You might just learn something.
I would like to know how Lisa prevented David W. Knight Sr. from voicing his opinion. His opinion is still there for all to see, remaining voiced? This is one of the things that Jo was saying was so great about this country. Neither I nor anyone else have a problem with you being Christian and holding yourself to every single one of the 613 or so laws that are in the Bible, but just because that it your law, does not mean that it is the law for others. That is why we have government AND churches in this country, not government by church, nor church by government. You seem to want the government to enact biblical law in this land, but would you feel the same if they enacted the law of a different religion, or even just a version of biblical law that you do not currently follow? I am thinking you would protest being held to some of the laws no longer currently in practice by modern day Christians, and even if you were OK with it, that is not what our country was founded on. My point is that if you do not want to break Biblical Law, do not, but someone who is not a follower of those teachings does not need to be held to them, much the same as I would not want to be held to Jewish or Muslim law.
In addition, if you think there is someone preventing particular citizens from running for public office, I assure you there is not. If you think Obama does not understand what it is like to be lower middle class, remember this: Barrack Obama was a mixed race child born in the 60’s to an 18 year old girl who’s husband left, and she lived as a single mother while attending college before and after her divorce. Barrack saw his father once when he was ten. His father died shortly after that and his mother died of cancer at the age of 53. This was not a life of privilege at all, and he was not rich. If any president has a good idea what it is like to be middle class or lower, it is Barrack Obama.
Sheather.. don’t you, and those who think like you, understand that YOU are the problem? God and Jesus told you to live YOUR life, not to live the lives of those around you for them. If you disagree with abortion, do not get one. If you disagree with gay marriage, do not marry someone of your gender. Nothing whatsoever is “being done to you” because you are a Christian. Nobody is preventing you from not getting an abortion or not marrying someone of the same sex. Nobody is preventing you from going to church. Nobody is preventing you from giving to charity, or loving thy neighbor. Nobody is preventing you from helping the poor. Nobody is preventing you from not killing. And especially, despite everything that Fox News is telling you, nobody is preventing you from voicing your opinion, as you so disingenuously claimed above. You posted on this website, right? You posted your opinion, correct? The evil gay liberal thought police didn’t come running into your home and throw you in jail, did they?
You. Missed. The. Entire. Point. Of. Jo’s. Article.
God and Jesus didn’t take away your ability to reason, nor did the evil gay liberal media abortionmongers. Which leads me to think that whatever nonsensical opinions people have been feeding you and telling you that you must believe have taken that ability away. Perhaps, if you wish to live as freely in your mind as you already do in America, you should take some time to think [yes, you are allowed and encouraged to think] about what is really bringing you harm. You are only closeminded if you close your own mind.
Let me just step in here and say that you are correct, no one is preventing Sheather from living out his Christian beliefs… not yet anyway.
I like your response, Rabbit, and agree.
I’m so tired of Christians forcing their religion onto others who aren’t of the same faith. I happen to be Buddhist, and do not believe in anything you’re spouting off about the Bible (however, I am well versed in Biblical Studies). We are a nation of many religions, and we need to remember that. This country was founded on religious freedom, and freedom from religion. I would appreciate your leaving religion out of government… because the separation of church and state is still intact. Your religion does not dictate to me (someone of another faith) what I can and cannot do. Nor does it tell me what is a sin and what’s not. I believe in one thing… Love. And I wish every one would believe in the same thing… the world would be a much better place if this were the only law. Because childish bickering and pointing of fingers gets us nowhere.
Pip,
Thanks for pointing out, with such a level head, that this is a nation founded on religious freedom. Our separation of church and state is fundamental in our continued freedom and success.
This is a good point to keep in mind for this lively discussion.
I laughed out loud when I saw the comment above that this is a “Christian Country” (thanks for that Yeppers). It is not. This is a free country and wouldn’t it be great if our freedom pulled us closer together.
Unfortunately, Pip, “Love” cannot be a law. It can’t be dictated. But from a small seed, it can grow. Love is the most powerful force in the universe.
Sheather – You complain that people persecute you for your beliefs but fail to realize that it is not your beliefs that are the problem but the fact that you are trying to impose them on others that is the problem. If you do not believe in gay marriage – don’t marry someone of the same sex. If you do not believe in abortion – don’t have one. These are not things that you can not “believe” in. You can feel that they are the wrong choice for you but others get to make the decisions for themselves. How is it fair or logical to say that two men in love that you do not even know from Adam can not marry each other because it goes against YOUR religious beliefs!? You are not attacked and persecuted for your beliefs you are attacked and persecuted for trying to force those beliefs on others. In the Jewish religion eating pork is against their beliefs, they are not having bacon pulled from the shelves. They are not declaring slaughtering a pig to be murder. They are walking past the items they choose not to eat and letting others make their own choices.
As for the woman being prosecuted for aborting a fetus vs double homicide. There are limits on when the double homicide can be used. It is only when it is viable without the mother! And the same should be true for abortion – a fetus is not an individual being because it can not survive on it’s own.
SHeather, if you think that having people disagree with your opinion and voicing the same equates to “persecution”, the, NASA, I think we’ve found the problem.
That’s called freedom of speech. We are all entitled to it. You just defined freedom of speech as “persecution.”
I would invite you to look outside your safety blinders and see what real persecution is. It is happening to other people in other countries right now. They are dying for speaking their minds.
You were simply exposed to another point of view.
Sorry, you and your friend up there haven’t been persecuted, princess.
So tell me something Sheather …
When did you decide to be straight?
I believe in your right to free speech, as the founding fathers did. However, I also believe in separation of church and state, as our founding fathers did. Our constitution must be interpreted in the absence of religious beliefs. Equality for all men=marriage equality. If that conflicts with your beliefs, don’t marry someone of the same sex. The right to privacy=my ability to make decisions for my body. If you your religion permits abortion, don’t have one. I don’t understand why it has to be more difficult than that.
Oh for the love of all that is fricken holy. Would you PLEASE get off the cross, some people need the wood. Someone disagreeing with you and calling you out on your crap isn’t persecution. It is NOT censorship its called a exercising the free market of ideas. It is what our forefathers fought for.
Also what you are describing with biblical law is what is known as a THEOCRACY, where a country is ruled by religion NOT liberty. So you are just here and now declaring yourself a unpatriotic wretch who wants to do away with democracy and the constitution. You have no right to legislate your religion in this country and I am sick and tired of people attempting to push their own dogma on others. You are free to disagree with who the president is but as an American you are required to respect the office. You are also free to express your distaste for abortion and gays, just as I am allowed to express my distaste at you being a narrow minded ass. What you are not allowed to do is enforce your faith on others. I know you long for the days when you could force people to become Christian and burn heretics at the stake but alas we have grown as a people and value individual liberty and humanity over trying to prove how holy we are by persecuting others.
For once adhere to the teachings of your prophet and learn to accept and love all of mankind rather than looking down your nose at others while proclaiming how much holier you are.
so sad to hear that you hide behind your bible. you state that you dont judge. but you dont approve of adam and steve and dont approve of gay marriages or abortions. so you are judging those people who are not christians and do not have the same beliefs as you do. i am catholic, but i believe in abortion. not for myself. but i dont believe that my religious views should dictate what other women should choose to do with their own bodies. an easy understanding for a simple mind as yours, just because i like chocolate ice cream doesnt mean that everyone in the entire free world should eat it. i have no right to force them to eat it because i think it is the best. it is what is the best for me. i think it is perfect. but others might like vanilla. i am not going to force people to like it just because it is my belief or i heard in church that the pope eats chocolate too. you said the bible is your law. fine and dandy. yet you speak highly of CLINTON? REALLY? i guess i missed that verse in the bible where it says blow jobs for a married man are okay when given in the oval office….i must reread. i think you better put down your bible or get off your horse in kentucky or virginia(yeah,i am judging) and realize that saying you dont hate any sex needs to change. you have to start thinking about not hating who people have sex with!!! put down your bible and think for yourself and realize you are insecure and have no beliefs of your own. free will. america. freedom of choice. tragic.
You said, “I do not believe in gay marriages, I do not believe in abortion.” Do not believe in it all you want, it IS REALITY. How can you not believe in something that is happening, that is real and is legal? Now, if you said, “I don’t support gay marriages or abortion.” that I understand. Don’t get gay married or get an abortion. But trying to control other people is just not your business.
Keep your bible in your church, where it belongs, but keep it out of my laws and my rights, okay?
You can believe whatever you want, nobody can stop you, but when you make a such a general statement as, “I supposely I am suppose to voice my opinion and not get persacuted, but I do by people that do not share my believes.”, and “It is people like you…” while in the same paragraph say, “I do not judge”, you tend to lose a little credibility. (P.S. that whole paragraph about wanting to charge pregnant women who have abortions with murder? Maybe you should leave that judgement to Jesus, too). Namaste 🙂
Sigh @ Adam and Steve. Why can’t those who are trying to impose their religious beliefs on me at least have original jokes? Geez.
With you there, Tracey! If I hear Adam and Steve one more time, I’m going to… turn gay! Or at least puke.
heres an opinion from me. You PROBABLY, just a hunch, might be allowed to voice your opinion without persecution, if your very OPINION, did NOT include persecution in it. What does your ancient belief have to do with millions of americans being denied equal rights? the constitution says: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. In fact, and thank the good lord, that YOUR, can i say RELIGIOUS, belief, does not have any sway over how i am able to live my life. Now this is the problem with america today. People think everyone has to respect their opinion. FALSE. we all have the right to HAVE an opinion. Just as someone else can have theirs. And the same amendment of the US consitution, that protects ME from your archaic belief that i cannot marry sometime, allows me to tell you that you are on the wrong side of history, and that liberty in this GREAT nation will not be stopped by the likes of you, or anyone who shares your opinion about gay marriage.
Sheather, how can you say “I do not judge” and then say those things about people who are also God’s children and are born naturally loving people of their own gender? You are judging them unfit to be treated as full humans and full adult Americans. Believe me, there’s one way you can tell that homosexuals are born, not “made”: who would EVER CHOOSE to be gay when gay people are persecuted for just wanting to LOVE someone and be treated equally? You are judging, big time. Keep your opinions if you must, but don’t lie about them, please.
You do realise that before Roe v. Wade that there were still many abortions preformed, If you were rich you flew to Sweden or if you were not so rich you went to Mexico and took your chances. If you were very poor you used a coat hanger and most likely died. So you think you should force YOUR morality on others and condemn then to death?
I have been trying to find a way to say this all day. Thank you.
My comment above was directed to Lisa’s comment.
a mutual friend, Mark Dodson, shared your post on fb and I was so happy he did. this was a great reminder. I shared it on fb & twitter and have had many friends share it as well. hopefully we can remind others we have the power to make change happen.
Thank you for writing this article!! I thank you for giving me another (BETTER) perspective to look at this year’s election. I am a native New York and use to work at the World Trade Center on the 101st Floor and seeing those picture made me cry all over again!
Yes, we have a tendency of looking at what we don’t have and what’s wrong instead of being grateful and thankful for what we DO have. We forget that there are others who do not have the “freedoms” that we have in the United States; we definitely take it for granted, which is a huge mistake on all our parts, myself included. Again, thank you!
God bless you and your family!
I wish I could put that on a coffee mug. But since it’s too big, I will stick with God Bless the USA – Thank You for being Free.
Awesome post. Truly.
Amazeballs. Thanks for a great read.
I agree totally.
Thank you for your wonderful article. All day I felt as if I had been punched in the stomach, or as if something wonderful was lost and gone forever. I think your voice is particularly important because of your family history and I want to thank you for sharing that. We Americans have so much to learn from those who have lived under communism. Usually however, I feel it is they who give us the us the most realistic and dire warning for policies such as those the Obama Administration will now pursue with a vengeance (yes, he is after all the President who said to vote for him for the sake of “revenge”). But you have given pause for thought in the best of ways.
Oh my goodness. I saw this via a friend (Jen up there!) on facebook and it brought tears to my eyes. This election season has been so disheartening for me with all of the hate being spewed. It was so refreshing to see a post that truly puts it into perspective in a way I hope so many Americans can see.
In response to the earlier commentor talking about the Supreme Court- that’s funny because their mention of that as an issue was the first reference to it I’ve seen in all the anger floating around today. That’s not what people are outwardly upset about. In elections there are winners and there are losers. In this country, we have the amazing gift of knowing in another 4 years, there is a set date, where we will go to the polls and get to do it all over again. Until then, Change begins with us.
Very well said. Great perspective!
Wisdom at it’s best. God bless you!
Thank you Jo!!! Simply Amazing!!
Yeah, tell me all about it. You might want to watch this short video and then check out the references it provides (Mark H Gaffney, EP Heidner and others)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K708VGdw3_c&feature=plcp
Brilliant article. So many need a glass of cold water thrown in their faces – how did we get to such a hateful place? Keep throwing that water, sistah.
Wonderfully said!
You couldn’t have said it any better. People at work talk about how bad the President is. They just don’t understand he wasn’t the one that made it bad. And thing won’t get fixed in one day.
Really? $16Trillion in debt, 23 million out of work, 27 million on food stamps – another Obamatron.
Scotti, you must not have read the article we are all commenting on. Take your hate mongering somewhere else. We really need to come together as a nation, no matter who you voted for! Ultimately, we are all American’s and if you do not agree with democracy then maybe you should go live somewhere where it doesn’t exist.
Yes Scotti for goodness sakes…all.that” hate mongering ” i guess thats code for telling the truth! Wow…free speech only belongs to the people on this site who agree with the author…Scotti nothing u said was hateful.
Thank you Elaine and Scotti, your opinion is valued unless its different from the people on this site. Then you are a hate mongering pessimist. Come on you guys.. let’s not be hypocritical. scotti was simply stating facts and got jumped on for doing so. Even if the economy is getting better it still has a long way to go. It’s not all rainbows and kittens with rose colored glasses some of you seem to be wearing.
Calling someone ‘another Obamatron’ is kind of hateful, name calling usually is.
Except for calling President “Obamatron”… I think Scotti was right. I don’t think Romney would’ve done better. I’m hoping… rather than being a pessimist… that Our President will listen to us all, and do what’s necessary to get the country back on track. Hope is all we have in this world… let’s not throw it away.
YOUR SPEECH ISHATEFUL
Scotti, Amanda has it right, although I would add that our LEADERS need to come together and work toward some solutions. While I’m by no means an Obama supporter, I frankly don’t blame the debt on him. It’s now to the point where the numbers don’t work. There’s no way to tax or grow our way out. We will ultimately default, and we’ll do it the old fashioned way, via inflationary default. My hope is that we can get through the coming currency crisis (which I think will occur between now and 2020) without losing our nation. But I can’t blame Obama for it. Or Bush. It’s been a long time coming, across multiple administrations. Why? Because people elect those who promise them what they want, not what is realistically doable.
Greg P – Yours is the most correct observation written in this conversation. The math doesn’t work and almost all of our spending policies all have annual escalators in them. The politicians won’t make any changes that will piss off voters and voters won’t vote for anyone who says they are going to make changes. It is unfortunate, but it is going to have to get much worse for this dynamic to change.
We had a much higher GDP to debt ratio after WWII, and we took care of it. There is no reason why we cannot do that now as well.
the above was fro Jordan, poor soul. this is for Scotti…nothing happens or can be fixed in 4 years. look at history.
Scotti, I defend your right to “speak your mind” even though I do not agree with you. But what makes me wonder is, were you speaking your mind when we invaded Iraq looking for the “never-to-be-found” Weapons of Mass Destruction; a war that put our country in debt? Why is it that we only hear from people (speaking their minds) when someone is in a political office that they do not like? Just speaking my mind…….
You do know the recession/depression started in 2007. Bush had a 300 billion stimulus in the summer of 08 in case you have forgotten, but it was too small and didnt work. We were losing 800 thousand jobs a MONTH when Obama took office in Jan 09. He stopped the bleeding and turned things around we are now gaining 150K jobs a month. Also the LAST Bush Budget was the one in 09, you know the one with a 1.6 trillion dollar deficit. You do understand that the budget is formulated and voted on the year BEFORE it is enacted. 80% of all spending TODAY is from Bush era legislation and policies like 2 unfunded wars and medicare part D. Never before in history did the USA go to war and CUT taxes. No we have always PAID for our wars. Not the GOP unnecessary wars like Iraq. Really. Who is the “Tron”? Or were you still in highschool during the years before the last election?
Very poetic but absurdly hipo-critcal. Where were your words during the election when the upper class of our nation was being ripped apart, being labeled racist and greedy. Why couldn’t you have come out then to let everyone in on the secret that we all, as Americans, have it better than anywhere else on the planet? The tragedy of re-electing this man as president of the United States is a real thing, which will become apparent to you soon enough. The only positive thing is he cannot run again.
Easy Ted. While I’m not pleased with the results of this election, I’ll offer two points. One is that Jo is right, and if you were not aware of the truth of her words prior to the election, you need to travel more. (Or just follow the news in Europe.) The second point came home to me this evening during a walk with my wife as we enjoyed the lovely scenery around us (southern UT). In 1861, Americans went to war. With each other. It was brutal and bloody and lasted four long years. In 1941, we went to war, and it was a World War. All through 1940, the future of Europe hung in precarious balance, when, as Churchill said, never in history have so many owed so much to so few (the RAF). What we’re facing today is a currency crisis. A money crisis. It will have real implications. And, in a worst case scenario it could lead to war. Let’s hope it doesn’t. But the election of Obama, much as it does suggest the nation is evolving into something new, is nothing… nothing… compared to what we’ve been through, and survived, as a nation. Be of good cheer.
And here’s another way to look at it. Have you been to Canada? I’ve spent a good deal of time there. I have many Canadian friends, and a diverse bunch of them, from good old Canucks to Quebecois. Canadians currently have a higher per-capita income than people in the U.S. (I know, but it’s true.) Suppose our future looks something like Canada? I could imagine worse scenarios. Far worse.
I like your response, sir.
Canadians also have socialized medicine, no abortions restrictions and gay marraige is allowed. I dont think he would like it there
Whatever happened to the days where no matter who was, “The President” they were somewhat respected no matter what party they came from? They were given an unsaid courtesy, just because. Even with differences, once they were elected, they were supported. If we all get behind one effort, we will be successful. Perseverence is a key player in success. Just as any diet, it wont work unless you stick with it. Why cant we just stick with it, all in, and see what happens.? Why cant Congress just be supportive and give it their all to support the President, instead of keeping us at a stale mate? We are fighting ourselves and keep our Nation down. Even if Romney won we should all get behind him as well, if that was the majority vote, then that is what we should support as a Nation.